Discussion:Negative capital accounts

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For example, if the partnership in my example has no debt and the 90% partner funds a $500,000 loss, it would be totally inappropriate to allocate $50,000 of that loss to the 10% partner who contributed only $10,000. (My answer would change if they amended the partnership agreement to conform to SEE). For example, if the partnership in my example has no debt and the 90% partner funds a $500,000 loss, it would be totally inappropriate to allocate $50,000 of that loss to the 10% partner who contributed only $10,000. (My answer would change if they amended the partnership agreement to conform to SEE).
-Back to you original question which was whether the substantial economic effect requirement applies to every allocation. The answer is yes. Look at the statute (below). SEE is applied first, and PIP is applied next.+Back to your original question which was whether the substantial economic effect requirement applies to every allocation. The answer is yes. Look at the statute (below). SEE is applied first, and PIP is applied next.
''(b) Determination of distributive share. ''(b) Determination of distributive share.

Revision as of 04:24, 7 September 2009

Discussion Forum Index --> Advanced Tax Questions --> Negative capital accounts
Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Negative capital accounts

Lakemartin (talk|edits) said:

3 September 2009
I have a real estate partnership client. Apartments. One equity investor put in about 7 mil. Two other partners put in zero. Using debt basis the two who put in zero now have negative capital accounts caused by rental losses. The partnership sells the apartments for a 4mil loss. In the same year has rental loss of 1.5mil. The partnership still has a little cash, a few payables and has not been terminated. According to the minimum gain chargeback provision, it appears that the partners must recognize income to bring their capital accounts into line with their allocated share of what little debt remains. The real estate was sold at a loss. The rental activity was a loss. Where do I get the income to allocate to the partners with negative capital accounts? If they took rental losses, do I show rental income? I guess I am confused about the character of the income and how is this done on the K-1's? HELP!

DgR (talk|edits) said:

3 September 2009
Was partnership's "trade or busineess", apartment rentals? Usually apartment rentals (I assume condo's) are not a trade or business. What is the debt basis? Loans to the partnership, or mortgages on the apartments? I don't know what minimum gain chargeback provision is.

AmirK (talk|edits) said:

4 September 2009
Lakemartin what happened to the debt? Since you say basis was provided by debt,doesn't the partnership have Cancellation of Debt income, if it was operating at a loss?

Lakemartin (talk|edits) said:

4 September 2009
Trade was apartment rentals. Actually condo development train wreck turned into apartments and rented. Roughly 34mil in assets, 27.5mil mortgage loan and 7 mil of equity. No forgiveness of debt. Bank recovered the principal and forgave some interest and penalty accruals. This resulted in reduction of interest expense and some reduction in basis for the interest accrued during the construction period still unpaid. The equity partner just took a major haircut. Hopefully this answers your questions.

AmirK (talk|edits) said:

4 September 2009
If the partneship had $34 million in assets and $27.5 in mortgage, there was no minimum gain, therefore, I am not sure how the debt was originally allocated to the partners who now have negative capital accounts. Under 752, nonrecourse debt is first allocated to the extent there is a minimum gain which I do not see here unless I am overlooking something.

Lakemartin (talk|edits) said:

4 September 2009
I'm still lost. You're surprised, I know. Are you saying that these partners should not have been allocated the losses in prior years according to the P&L allocation percentages in the partnership agreement?

AmirK (talk|edits) said:

4 September 2009
Not having all the details, it appears that the loss allocation in prior years might not have been correct. I must say I have some familiarty with 704(b) but I ain't no 704(b)expert.

Derwood (talk|edits) said:

5 September 2009
Lake, it's not a partnership issue ... it is a partner issue.

It appears that you have allocated the rental loss and sale loss among the partners ... and as a result, some partners now have negative capital balances. (Note: Were your allocations in accordance with the operating agreement? .... I hope so.)

It sounds like you have read tax literature, that you don't seem to understand, regarding negative capital balances.

You have been greatly misinformed if you think that the partnership has to do something to force the negative capital balances to $-0-.

You should leave the negative capital balances alone. Do not pull some magical income $amount out of the air to use as an off-set to bring the deficit capital accounts to a $-0- position. It's not expected of you and it's nonsense to even consider.

The individual partner's will have to deal with the negative capital balances when they prepare their 1040.

A partner who's K-1 shows a negative capital balnce will have to limit his deductible pass-through K-1 loss to his adjusted basis in the partnership. Any loss not deducted, by the partner, due to basis limitation ... will be suspended until the partner has future basis against which to deduct it.

So- you, as the preparer of the partnership return should not worry about what to do. You should do nothing. The responability of dealing with negative partnership balances is a partner respnsability and will be dealth with by each parter seperately when he/she prepares his/her 1040.

AmirK (talk|edits) said:

5 September 2009
In order for the partnership allocation to be respected,allocation must have substantial economic effect (SEE) under 704(b). Three tests must be met for the allocation to have substantial effect; a)Maintenance of proper capital account b)Liquidating distribution must be in accordance with the capital account and c)There should be a negative restoration provision in the partnership agreement to compel partners with negative capital account to contribute to the partnership to bring their negative accounts to zero. Now if an agreement meets the first two requirements, but not the third requirement (i.e. the negative capital restoration), the partnership agreement can still meet the SEE requirements if it has a provision which will not permit loss allocation to cause or increase a deficit balance in the partners' captial account.Therefore,if the partnership does not observe the 704(b) rules of SEE, the partnership will end up having partners with erroneus negative captial accounts.

The other scenario when a partner can end up with an erroneous negative captial account is when the partnership does not follow Section 752 nonrecouse debt allocation (i.e. not taking the minimum gain rule)and allocates losses to a partner. Both of the above cases (sections 704(b) and 752)are partnership issues, so I respectfully disagree with Derwood opinion.

Derwood (talk|edits) said:

5 September 2009
AmirK, Sec 704(b) only deals with special allocations. If there are no special allocations then 704(b) is ignored.

Sec 752 and nonrecourse debt does not affect capital balances. Sec 752 and nonrecourse only affects partner's outide cost basis.

Laketahoecpa (talk|edits) said:

5 September 2009
Its been quite awhile since I've had to deal with 704(b) issues but I believe AmirK explained it very well.

I disagree that 704(b) only deals with special allocations. The application of 704(b) may cause allocations of partnership losses to the partners that is different from their ownership percentages - but that's the whole point - to make sure the allocation meets the requirement of Substantial Econcomic Effect.

Derwood (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
Lake, a few hours ago you asked where you should get income to allocate to partners with negative capital balances (the most absurd question I've ever heard). Now you suddenly have knowledge about 704(b). Are you for real ...?

The economic effect requirements of 704(b) only deal with special allocations. Since non-special allocations are based strictly on partners profit & loss sharing ratios, then non-special allocations are automatically respected for tax purposes and therefore do not have to satisfy the economic effect requirements of 704(b) in order to be respected for tax purposes.

Riley2 (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
The substantial economic effect rule applies even when there are no special allocations.

Yes, if there is a decrease in partnership minimum gain, each partner must be allocated a share of the minimum gain charge-back. However, the minimum gain charge-back rules would not apply if all of the debt was full-recourse.

Riley2 (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
Also, if the debt was full-recourse, not really sure that losses should have been allocated to the noncontributing partners unless there was a deficit restoration requirement in the partnership agreement.

Laketahoecpa (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
Excuse me Derwood, but if you read more carefully, you will see that I am not Lakemartin, but Laketahoecpa.

Why don't you fill out your profile so we can see if you're for real.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
Lakes everywhere! The Lord has provided again. I'm out in Branson teaching a preaching class, and I was looking for a subject to stir them up. I'm going with the "Lake of Fire"!

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
As the man in black sang, you mean "Ring of Fire," don'tcha? I fell into that burning ring of fire.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
David, you are confusing the ring of fire with the lake of fire.

The Ring of Fire the Devil uses for those just down for purgatory. It's offered to the Catholics at a discount, and it singes off the feathers of temporal sin, then back up to heaven they go. Only a priest can arrange that.

The Lake of Fire (sometimes referred to as the "Deep Fryer") is for the eternally damned. There are a lot of liberal preachers that's never heard of it.

I just found out more good news, by the way (but it's just a rumor at this point, and may not be true). All of you have probably heard that the Duggar family is going to have it's 19th piglet pretty soon. A group of white, conservative preachers here in Branson have supposedly arranged for us visiting preachers to watch the birth on closed circuit TV. Glory! When we get the white race bred back up, we can start on the Red Man, and get him back where he were. Then, we can bring back the Westerns, and get some good Christian movies on TV again!

Derwood (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
Riley, Can you describe one hypothetical non-special allocation situation in which the three economic effect requirements of 704(b) must be met in order for that non-special allocation to be respected for tax purposes ?

Riley2 (talk|edits) said:

6 September 2009
I think you are asking about the applicability of the safe-harbor rule to allocations that are consistent with the normal P & L sharing ratio.

Example: A and B form a general partnership on Jan 1, 2009. A contributes $90,000 and B contributes $10,000. The partnership agreement allocates profits and losses on a 90-10 ratio and all distributions on a 90-10 ratio (regardless of capital balances). The partnership agreement does not have a capital account maintenance requirement or a deficit restoration requirement.

Obviously, none of the allocations in this scenario satisfy the safe-harbor rule because: A) there is no deficit restoration requirement; B) there is no capital account maintenance requirement; and C) there is no requirement that liquidating distributions be made in accordance with positive balances in capital accounts.

Derwood (talk|edits) said:

7 September 2009
Riley, so are you saying that the non-special allocation you described will not be respected for tax purposes if the partnership completely ignores A,B, & C ?

If you answer is yes, then I disagree.

According to Reg. Sec. 1.704-1(b)(1) ....an allocation will be respected if it is made in accordance with the partners' interest in the partnership.

Any allocation that is made in accordance with the partners' interest in the partnership is a non-special allocation. Thus all non-special allocations are automatically respected for tax purposes simply because they are not special allocations.

Special allocations are allocatios that are not made in accordance with the partners' interest in the partnership.

Only special allocations have to have substantail economic effect, in order to be respected.

Riley2 (talk|edits) said:

7 September 2009
No, that is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that the partnership agreement in my example fails the safe-harbor test contained in the substantial economic effect regulations. Obviously, failing the safe-harbor test does not necessarily mean that the allocation will not be respected, particularly if the PIP test is satisfied.

I think you and I are using 2 different definitions of the term “special allocation”, which is defined in the 702 regs as an allocation that differs from the allocation of profit or loss, generally.

Also, the P & L sharing ratio itself is an example of a non-special allocation that is subject to the substantial economic effect rules (or alternatively, the PIP rules).

For example, if the partnership in my example has no debt and the 90% partner funds a $500,000 loss, it would be totally inappropriate to allocate $50,000 of that loss to the 10% partner who contributed only $10,000. (My answer would change if they amended the partnership agreement to conform to SEE).

Back to your original question which was whether the substantial economic effect requirement applies to every allocation. The answer is yes. Look at the statute (below). SEE is applied first, and PIP is applied next.

(b) Determination of distributive share. A partner's distributive share of income, gain, loss, deduction, or credit (or item thereof) shall be determined in accordance with the partner's interest in the partnership (determined by taking into account all facts and circumstances), if— (1) the partnership agreement does not provide as to the partner's distributive share of income, gain, loss, deduction, or credit (or item thereof), or (2) the allocation to a partner under the agreement of income, gain, loss, deduction, or credit (or item thereof) does not have substantial economic effect.