Discussion:Today's Perspective

From TaxAlmanac, A Free Online Resource for Tax Professionals
Note: You are using this website at your own risk, subject to our Disclaimer and Website Use and Contribution Terms.

From TaxAlmanac

Jump to: navigation, search

Discussion Forum Index --> General Chat --> Today's Perspective


Taocpa (talk|edits) said:

2012-12-14
In light of the horrific news out of Connecticut today, it is a true reminder that sometimes, taxes are just not that important.

Please do not post anti-gun philosophies or political leanings.

I am praying for all those affected by this horrific event.

Tom

JAD (talk|edits) said:

14 December 2012
Yes, thank you Tom. I've added my post just for the sake of community. This is devastating.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

14 December 2012
Quote: Please do not post anti-gun philosophies or political leanings.

That statement is in itself a philosophy about guns, and it is also a political statement. However, out of respect of Tom, I won't say more.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

14 December 2012
It was a teacher's 24 year old son; she taught kindergarten. Horrible.

JAD (talk|edits) said:

14 December 2012
Yahoo says she's dead. That's a bit of mercy at least, so she doesn't have to live with what happened.

RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said:

14 December 2012
I agree with Tom, a moment or so of reflection is good for the well being of each of us.

Snowbird (talk|edits) said:

15 December 2012
Having Grandkids that age ... I have pain in the pit of my stomach just hearing about it.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

15 December 2012
Diane Sawyer conducted an excellent interview of one of the teachers at the school which appeared on ABC News tonight. The teacher's name is Kaitlin Roig. There is an article about it on the abcnews.com website; hopefully they will post the video of the interview soon. The first thing that went through my mind when I heard this today was the mass shooting at the one-room Amish school house in Pennsylvania. It really gets to you when young kids are involved in such a tragedy.

Captcook (talk|edits) said:

15 December 2012
I'm finally heading home for the day. I'm going to give my kids (4yrs & 1.5yrs) an extra long hug when I get there.

Taxaway (talk|edits) said:

15 December 2012
But let's not think only parents can feel how tragic this is (ie, the way media comments). Parents having to go the school, not knowing if their child is safe or not. Horrible day.

Makbo (talk|edits) said:

16 December 2012
Quote: Please do not post anti-gun philosophies or political leanings.

That statement is in itself a philosophy about guns, and it is also a political statement

Agreed. The General Chat forum should not be stifled by notions of Political Correctness regardless of which direction they come from.

Taocpa (talk|edits) said:

2012-12-16
Crow,

My comment had more to do with several friends made political comments that I felt were not in keeping with the events of the day.

I had to turn off the coverage as it was depressing the heck out of me.

I really don't care what anyone's political leanings are right now. My concern is for the victims of this horrible event.

Tom

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
Tom, this is not directed at you, it's just a general comment. A reflection upon the deaths of the children and adults naturally leads to a reflection upon what got us to the state of affairs we have today. It's hard to separate one from the other. With 300M guns in the hands of the public in America, I am not optimistic about any efforts at control. I think it's a pipe dream. As a nation, we've made our bed and we'll have to lie in it. Personally, I would like to see guns be "de-glorified", that would satisfy me. I agree it's time that the spotlight be put on the victims. I was thinking this weekend that I actually went to an elementary school with banks of windows along one side of the classrooms; we could actually see the outdoors if you can believe it, We could see the birds in the trees.

Sumwun (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
Guns are not the cause, they are merely the most obvious symptom. What we need to do in this country is severely re-adjust our attitude to violence and the value we place on life (by which I mean more than mere existence).

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
(by which I mean more than mere existence).

It's the fault of the atheist existentialists, is it?

I'm not sure throwing the atheists on the fire will do the trick. Some of the biggest gun polluting individuals today are big church goers and they believe they were made with a purpose and in the image of a gun-toting God.

God, guns and country is the motto of the fat suburban gunslinger and the pathetic weekend warrior of today.

I've seen the mother in this case referred to today in the news as a "protector" of her son. In my opinion, she was far from it. There is a rush in this country by adults to place the blame on this young man. The mother was a gun nut and the little nuts don't fall far from the tree.

We have to "de-glorify" the guns in this country. We don't glorify a shovel, it's tool, and we need to look at the gun as a tool and not look at it as a substitute for manhood or courage.

NMexEA (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
I was around guns throughout my childhood and, of course, during my Navy service. At all times, at home and on duty, guns were kept in secure, locked facilities except when being used for practice or sport or on duty.

I do not understand the rabid objections to mandatory trigger locks or other safety devices. I have never understood it since safety storage does not infringe on anyone's 2nd Amendment rights.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/dec/15/our-moloch/

MP-JD-LLM (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
I grew up in the 50's and 60's. This kind of thing just never happened. We walked to school and rode our bikes anywhere we wanted. Our parents rarely knew where we were, and never worried about us.

In those days, a person could walk into a store and walk out with a pistol or rifle. There was no cooling off period, no background check. My dad was an ex-marine and always had guns. I learned to shoot at a young age. But, he instilled in us the sanctity of life. One did not kill except out of necessity. We hunted and fished, and ate what we took.

The first mass killing was Charles Whitman in 1966. He was found to have had a brain tumor.

Something has happened to our society. We have become less polite, ruder, more selfish. We can speculate as to what it is, but in my opinion, it started in the sixties, when we elevated the individual over God and the state. Today, we are all special, every one of us. We have become the "me" society. I am the most important person in my life. My wants and needs come above those of anyone else and God help anyone who gets in my way.

The hypocracy in our society is palpable. Hollywood has postponed for a week the release of Jack Reacher, a movie that romantizes and idolizes violence. Yet, these same repugnant denizens of Hollywood scream for gun control. They are so much into "me" that they are oblivious to the effect that their vile culture has on the fabric of our nation.

Look at the faces of those young victims. They were still open, hopeful for the future. How is it that we now produce monsters the can take the lives of these innocents with such impunity, with no fear of the judgement that awaits such a perverted soul.

It's sad. I am an old guy now, getting close to seventy. I think that I lived through the best years that America has to offer. I am almost glad that I will not be around to witness the final distruction of this once great nation. Did anyone notice that America has this week fallen out of the ten most prosperous nations? People no longer believe that they may get ahead through hard work. We are $16 trillion in debt. Our sovereign debt has been downgraded and faces future downgrades. A person works his whole life, pays taxes on the earnings and the government takes 55% of what he saves during his lifetime. Cannot we not see that this kills initiative?

Solace may be found in prozac, vicodin and valium. They have become our gods, our comfort. They make life bearable, when it has lost all meaning otherwise.

Oh, enough. I am making myself depressed. I need a few hours at 9,000 feet in the snow to clear my head and commune with my Creator. Bye bye.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
Howard Unruh, who died in 2009, had the dubious distinction of being the first mass killer....I grew up across the river from Camden and do not remember this, but remembered reading of it.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/howard_unruh/index.html

I distinctly remember Sylvia Seegrist at the Springfield Mall

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/sylvia_seegrist/index.html

Is it possible that the closure of mental hospitals in the 70s-80s contributed to the carnage? Ms. Seegrist was a perfect example. It was the time when "I"'me' could check myself out if I felt well.....I had a client, more of a friend, who twice checked herself out after friends had her committed to save her....the second time she left, she succeeded in taking her own life.

MP-JD-LLM (talk|edits) said:

17 December 2012
In 2010, I spent two weeks in a small town a couple hours from Zurich. The client was located in an even smaller town about 5 miles from my hotel. Every morning an employee of the client would pick me up and drive to the offices. On the way, we passed by a firing range. I witnessed men in civilian clothing firing fully automatic assault rifles.

When I asked for an explanation, the employee said that generally when a man becomes of military age he must serve. He is issued a fully automatic military assault rifle which he then keeps well beyond military service and into old age. He is expect to remain proficient with his weapon. Thus, Switzerland has millions of fully automatic 7.62mm assault rifles with high capacity magazines in civilian hands. Yet, compared to the U.S. virtually no violence.

My point is that it is not the proliferation of guns in America that is the problem. These Swiss men are the quintessential "weekend warriors." And, yet, almost no societal violence. So, again, I ask what is it about American society that sparks this fraticide? It is clearly not the presence of guns. I believe that Americans would find a way of slaughtering one another if we had to use toothpaste or bubble gum.

Fr. Mackelhenry (talk|edits) said:

18 December 2012
Tears in Heaven, The Choirboys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj57wkcqAtU

JAD (talk|edits) said:

18 December 2012
Mike, thanks for your post, esp the long one just above your most recent. You have captured the deep sadness that I feel about the same issues that you discussed, and I think that your analysis on all points is spot on.

Ukbones (talk|edits) said:

18 December 2012
This country accepts the airing of immolated bodies jumping to their deaths from burning buildings yet doesn’t accept, and will go to extraordinary lengths to sensor, a breast (ignoring the preposterous idea of allowing our children, or anyone, to see genitals, or hearing the word fuck without national outrage and long lines to the psychologist).

The Swiss to Americans are the Maasai people to Motown. Your fetish for guns exacerbates the problem(s). The Irish used to irksomely say "if you understand 'the troubles' you don't know what’s going on." This isn’t Ireland. The glorification of guns, violence, money, celebrity and acceptance of fear-mongering trash media, news-speak, corporate manipulation chased with a deep repression of the self and sex should be a solid start on your quest for answers.

How can you change with such adoration for money, food, God, porn and guns (in order of importance) and a propensity for self-destruction? That's the American dream - and society wants its cake...

Until the next disgusting act of a madman: my seemingly cheap words of condolence go to the suffering families and survivors. My thoughts are with them in the truest sense.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

18 December 2012
"when we elevated the individual over God and the state"

I don't believe that is the problem. As I mentioned above, it is a good portion of the Party of God in this country which has formed our modern day gun cult. Sometimes I can't make out if they are worshipping God, or idolizing guns and the dollar bill.

They say this young man had Asperger's but he was obviously able to function well (he made three A's in college classes); he wasn't insane because of this condition; he might have had other mental issues. His mother sounds like she was a fruit loop.

I think very few of these shooters were actually legally insane, but you never know what will happen in a given courtroom. As David pointed out above, many mental institutions were closed during the early 80s. If my memory serves, this effort was led by the Administration which declared ketchup and relish packs to be vegetables for the school lunch program. This was a self-declared Godly presidential administration.

The NRA has been amazingly quiet over the last few days. Last night I was watching the CBS news and they couldn't get a single extreme gun rights advocate on their show to speak about this tragedy. The NRA might have served a useful purpose at one time, but it's so extreme today that it's actually passed over into buffoonery. It's just that ridiculous.

We'll see what ALL the American people decide about the issue and who is responsible for it. I think the picture is becoming clearer to many Americans every day. Remember, we've already had young children killed in that one-room school house in Amish country.

Personally, I think we need to de-idolize and de-glorify the guns, and this will require that a portion of the men in this country get out of the high school locker room and start acting like men.

PollyAdler (talk|edits) said:

18 December 2012
Crow, it wasn't the Amish one-room school house that was the first killing of little kids. In recent times, it was that Right Wing Nut who dropped the federal building out in Colorado. I think some nursery school children got pancaked between two floors down in the basement. He didn't use a gun though, as far as I know.

Podolin (talk|edits) said:

18 December 2012
It was 1995, Oklahoma, not Colorado. Not that it matters to your point.

Snowbird (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
Here is a heart breaking article by a mom with a mentally ill child Thinking the Unthinkable , another title for the article is "I am Adam Lanza's Mother".

Crow, you alway want to blame Reagan for everything, but it was the ACLU and other liberals that decided if the mentally ill had not committed a crime they should not be held against their will that greatly reduced the institution population and closed the hospitals. D&T mentioned that patients could check themselves out of the hospital. You also always rant against the government having information on private citizens, assuming the young child in the article reaches the age of 21 without a criminal record, should his mental illness problems be part the of the ATF database that would prevent him from buying a gun?

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
I don't know that a lot of these shooters have a mental problem to begin with. After the shooting in the movie theater, the "Joker" warned the police that his apartment was booby trapped. To me, this is a sign that the boy knew the difference between right and wrong and he was not under any kind of mental compulsion and he was putting on a big act in court at his first appearance.

I remember when the Reagan administration cut funding for the mental institutions. Not long after that and continuing up to today our public librarians in many cities were turned into unpaid psychiatric nurses.

That's going to be the tactic for the far Right in this battle: claim that these shooters are all mental. We just need to worry about the mentally ill. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. It's the "normal" ones I worry about.

Down here in Georgia some in the majority party in our legislature announced today their intention to arm the teachers. The solution to guns is more guns. Now that the nuts on the Right have literally polluted our society with guns they are calling for an arms race in the classroom.

You can imagine what will happen when the math teacher pulls out her 9mm on a mass murderer toting a Bushmaster. I guess the teacher needs to sling a Bushmaster over her shoulder. Give her a bullet proof vest too. I understand the governor in Michigan was to decide this week whether to sign such a Bill into law in his state. I need to find what happened with that. Of course, the teachers are there to teach, so the gunman will always get the jump on them. The whole idea is absurd.

I knew that the solution by the extreme Right to this tragedy would be more guns. Good. Let them get themselves further out on a limb. It will make it that much easier to saw the limb off and watch their ideas fall to the ground.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
Snowbird is correct: it was the explosion of individual freedom that led to the closing of hospitals in my part of the world. Now some of them were veritable 'snake pits' but it was a case of throwing out of baby with bathwater. There are still some hospitals which meet the old criteria:

http://www.app.com/article/99999999/SPECIAL/80114089/Troubles-Ancora-Psychiatric-Hospital

(article may not be available, but the place is in Winslow Township NJ)

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
"When Ronald Reagan was governor of California he systematically began closing down mental hospitals, later as president he would cut aid for federally-funded community mental health programs. It is not a coincidence that the homeless populations in the state of California grew in the seventies and eighties. The people were put out on the street when mental hospitals started to close all over the state.

Seeing an increase in crime, and brutal murders by Herb Mullin, a mental hospital patient, the state legislature passed a law that would stop Reagan from closing even more state-funded mental health hospitals. But Reagan would not be outdone. In 1980, congress proposed new legislation (PL 96-398) called the community mental health systems act (crafted by Ted Kennedy), but the program was killed by newly-elected President Ronald Reagan. This action ended the federal community mental health centers (see timeline on this link) program and its funding.

In closing, the next time you pass by a homeless person in downtown San Francisco screaming to themselves at the top of their lungs, remember Reagan. And if your kids need to go out and get jobs at age 9 to pay down the national debt, be sure to tell them that they can thank Ronald..." http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/ronald-reagan-the-bad-and-the/


I remember very well the devastating effect the closing of community mental health centers had on the public libraries in the urban areas,and this continues up to today. It is a travesty what the librarians are required to do today to take care of these people. All unpaid work which they are not trained to do.

(The idea was that we would close the large state mental institutions and at least have community mental health centers for the mentally ill. Well, Reagan nixed that idea. )

PollyAdler (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
Report this morning that the mother was overwhelmed and she was considering "committing" her son to a mental institution.

Well, her son was an adult, which means that a formal proceeding would be necessary to commit him against his will. Now, where is this young man's mental health record? What mental health workers had he seen? Where's the record of mental illness?

My understanding is that Asperger's is not a mental illness. Was there other diagnosed and treated mental illness? I'd like to know. The family had money for doctors.

The mother was overwhelmed, but not too overwhelmed to buy guns and take this "dangerous" lad to the gun range.

Well, I'm sure more facts will continue to come out, I just hope we get all the facts.

P.S. Here is a catchy phrase that appeared in Bushmaster advertisements: Consider Your Man Card Reissued.

I say consider it revoked.

NMexEA (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
I think about whether gun control and mental hospitals would help but in the end, we are a country of over 300 million people. There will be undetected crazies who will find a gun somehow no matter what we do. About the only thing I can think of that might help is posting armed guards in every school, workplace, church, shopping mall, commuter train, theater, restaurant, and everywhere else that people congregate. I don't want to live like that. I don't want to cause children unnecessary anxiety by living like that.

PollyAdler (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
My understanding is that there are now 300 million guns floating around in America, so no matter what we do, a certain amount of slaughter will continue. When the blood flows deep enough, maybe we'll at least have an attitude adjustment.

The failure in this country is a failure by adults, and only the adults in the room can end the worship of guns and return them to their rightful place as objects of utility.

Ukbones (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
"...later as president he would cut aid for federally-funded community mental health programs."

I say this with a tinge of flippancy: arguably, and ironically, Ronnie was already showing signs of dementia during his second term.

Ukbones (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
NMexEA - bullet-proof backpacks.

'Murrika!

PollyAdler (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
When I was a kid, I chewed Bazooka bubble gum. Pretty soon, our kids will be issued real bazookas by certain elements in the country. Throw in some hand grenades too. It's a good opportunity for private enterprise to capitalize on this new arms race.

We need to put G. Gordon Liddy in charge of the new basic training required for all elementary school students, and mine the playgrounds so the kids can run a real obstacle course.

Captcook (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
Of course, the teachers are there to teach, so the gunman will always get the jump on them

You do recognize that most of the reason school are targeted for these shootings are that they are deemed "gun-free" zones. No shooter wants a target that will shoot back. These individuals may be mentally impaired, but they are also cowards. Just the suspicion of teachers being armed will go most of the way to deterring these individuals. Will it make it 100%? No, but that is the price we must pay for freedom. Remove the easy targets and most won't bother shooting.

What's the alternative? Do these attention-seekers then bomb buildings, poison people, release chemical weapons? Maybe, but that would further the position that guns are not the problem.

I think we have such a stigma in this country about mental health that those that need it are deterred from using those scarce resources that are available. If the conversation can remain focused on developing a mental health system that works, we may actually see improvement.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
I think the jury is still out as to whether this young man was mentally ill such that he had no responsibility for this crime. He made three A's in college classes and he did a darn good job of trying to destroy his computers before the shooting (he may have succeeded). Why destroy the hard drives unless he felt a sense of coming moral and legal culpability?

There are a lot of adults in this country that want the young man to be mentally ill. That way, they don't have to look at themselves in the mirror, or so they reason.

I'll repeat my closing comment about arming the teachers:

I knew that the solution by the extreme Right to this tragedy would be more guns. Good. Let them get themselves further out on a limb. It will make it that much easier to saw the limb off and watch their ideas fall to the ground.

A teacher blowing away a gunman would be a wonderful fantasy for some in this country. There is a group in America that seems prone to fantasy these days. I don't think fantasy would equal fact very often if teachers carried guns in the classroom.

MP-JD-LLM (talk|edits) said:

19 December 2012
Don't make the mistake of equating mental illness with legal insanity. Even if Adam Lanza knew the difference between right and wrong, it doesn't mean that he was not mentally ill. That Lanza was mentally ill seems clear based on information that has been released, i.e. that his mother was moving to have him institutionalized. Under cases brought by the ACLU, a person cannot be institutionalized against his will unless he is a threat to himself or others. Legal insanity does not enter the equation.

Your reference to his smashing of the hard drives seems to connote that he was hiding his crime, and that he therefore knew that what he was about to do was wrong. While the ability to discern right from wrong and may be the standard in some states for legally insanity, it is irrelevant, since Lanza will never see a court room. I submit that anyone who intentionally kills innocent children is mentally ill, regardless of whether he meets the state's definition of legal insantiy.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
His mother was moving to have him institutionalized. Yeah, I've heard that. What did she do? Hike from her den to her kitchen to think about it? I am open to hearing more facts in the case.

When did she start moving to have him institutionalized? When she saw him standing at her door with a gun?

I guess we'll find out. If we get all the facts. We know she thought him fit for the gun range. Maybe the police will discover how she stored the weapons she owned. It appears she had a Wal-smart credit card. Kroll & Associates is working to try to piece together his hard drives after he had the presence of mind to bash them. Adam knew he was going to do something bad.

So far I haven't heard enough to make me think he was mentally ill. He was born with the taint of original sin because Eve ate the apple after a snake talked with her. I guess he could just be evil, but you can't get the secularists to talk about evil. All they want to talk about is mental illness when guns are involved.

All these mass murderers have to be mental, otherwise the extreme gun rights wackos start to look mental.

Well, I've said enough. It's almost been a week since the shooting. The American people will decide what's best when the blood gets deep enough.

MWPXYZ (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
Regarding the Right and Reagan's role in deinstitutionalization: According to the helpful folks at National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy, advocacy for the mentally ill began by ex-mental patients. It began with small groups spontaneously springing up in Northern California, New York, and Massachusetts, in the late 1960's. Early advocacy efforts were simply groups of former mental patients who staged acts of civil disobedience, such as chaining themselves to the gates of mental hospitals; forming a human chain at an early-1970's meeting of the American Psychiatric Association, picketing later APA meetings, and "liberating" people from mental hospitals, by simply entering and taking the person out.

The National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy consider these pioneers heroes of the movement which is now called mental health advocacy. In the late 1970's, the federal government began to take notice, and encouraged states to support these groups through small grants. The Community Support Program was developed within the National Institute of Mental Health (now the Center for Mental Health Services), and it was charged with involving more people who had experienced psychiatric services in policy making and program development.

During the 1970’s a split developed between "consumers” and ex-patients (who called themselves "psychiatric survivors") who reject the system, and especially oppose "forced treatment" of any kind. Forced treatment is the legal means by which people are committed to psychiatric facilities; the most recent incarnation of forced treatment is "forced outpatient commitment," which is a legal method to force people to take medication, even while living on their own.

Again according to The National Association for Rights Protection and Advocacy “the first and only piece of social legislation put forth during the Reagan years” was a bill was passed to create a formal advocacy program in each state and territory to serve people with psychiatric disabilities. Most of the programs (called PAIMI -- Protection and Advocacy for Individuals with Mental Illness) became part of the already-existing advocacy programs for people with developmental disabilities, which had been established in the mid-70's. Perhaps the most important impact this legislation had was that it required that at least 50% of the membership of the Advisory Councils to each PAIMI program be current or former recipients of mental health services, or their family members.

Kendra’s Law was passed in NYS in 1999, it did not take long for the NY Civil liberties Union to actively oppose it.

Also the NYT 1984 article is still available: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html

I am not sure that stereotypes will be the basis of any successful attempts to minimize future events such as this.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
Here is a report I found today. Ronald Reagan and the Commitment of the Mentally Ill: Capital, Interest Groups, And the Eclipse of Social Policy. Prof. Alexander R. Thomas. Northeastern Univ., Electronic Journal of Sociology 1998.

I agree that there were various interest groups involved and it wasn't just Reagan. It's worth reading too. http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html

It should be pointed out that we don't know yet if Adam Lanza was mentally ill. I hope we get all the facts in the case. It's up to the people to decide when enough is enough. It appears that Adam was a gun and military glorifier according to this NY Post article: http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html However, it's still relatively early in the investigation.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
I am surprised to see so many comments in the media and on facebook about God being taken out of the schools as part of the problem. Well, surely Westboro Baptist Church coming to Connecticut for the funerals will bring God back.

MP-JD-LLM (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
Kevin, I am surprised that you equate Westboro Baptist Church with God.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
Kevin, the Reverend and Mind Doctorer James Dobson said that this was a combination of both a Godless school and gay marriage, so he got a twofer in on this latest shooting.

Adam was taken to the gun range at a young age by his mother and he was an excessive fan of the military. His plumber says he had a poster on his wall with every piece of U.S. military equipment ever made on it. The Plumber also says his walls were plumb covered with military and gun posters. It was reported by CNN that his mother had him to the gun range a week before the shooting. This sounds like a good conservative upbringing to me and the young man was on the Godly path even if he hadn't found God yet. God, guns and country is a refrain I've heard often from the conservative fold.

Yes, it's true that the local elementary school didn't have God, but that little Amish school in the vale was full up with God to the rafters, and its students were murdered and some of them were sexually assaulted by the shooter perp. in that incident. A horrendous loss of innocence for the Amish community and for our nation at the time.

If you can raise up a boy right and have him turn out to do something like this you have have to put it down to a mystery. A mystery in plain sight. We await more facts. It is still early in the investigation.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
MP-JD-LLM, you can't see my tongue planted firmly in my cheek on the internet. I wrote that simply for contrast.

The WBC thinks they are bringing the word of God to the families of the victims.

Taocpa (talk|edits) said:

2012-12-20
Having personally seen the Westboro Baptist Church and their antics, they can just go to an island for all I care.

I can't really say what I want about them, it's un-Christian.

Tom

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

20 December 2012
Here we have Charlotte Allen blaming the lack of males in the school:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335996/newtown-answers-nro-symposium#

And she keeps it up: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/336275/newtown-my-critics-charlotte-allen#

Seems to me the old Monty Python Salad Days piece answers her desire to return to the days of Dodge City:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Hnv7tXEBATc

Snowbird (talk|edits) said:

21 December 2012
Crow, you continue to live in the past, however, you are getting more current ... Reagan was President 23 years ago ... since Reagan there has been 12 years of Democrat Presidents ... even both houses controlled by the Democrats.

CrowJD (talk|edits) said:

21 December 2012
Yes, some Democrats "fell" for the Big Lies too (mostly because they themselves were multi-millionaires and they wanted to feather their own nests at the expense of their constituents).

We'll see if the middle class will wake up before it's gone. Time will tell. Right now, the plan to turn America into a banana republic is alive and well, and if they are allowed to knock out the middle class, they will proceed to bust out the upper middle class as well.

If the plans for a banana republic proceed on pace, then there will be social unrest in America on an unprecedented scale in this internet age, so the costs of a police state will merely replace those of the Welfare State, and then the Police State will turn on those who created it.

Snowbird (talk|edits) said:

22 December 2012
One of my Michigan relatives pointed this out to me ... Bath School Mass Murder ... "deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history."

CathysTaxes (talk|edits) said:

23 December 2012
Judging from some of the comments, there seems to be a lack of understanding of individuals with Asperger's Syndrome. Individuals with AS are considered high functioning (high IQs, very bright) but are severely lacking in the social department. They see things in black and white, they don't get the punch line of a joke, etc. They are frequent targets of bullies. When I ask parents of school aged Aspie kids how their kids are doing, it's not uncommon for them to say the kids just got in trouble at school today. They are very surprised when I say "let me guess, some kid was harassing them and your son's reaction to it was considered inappropriate" and they think I'm a mind reader. Being a parent of a child with Autism, I spend a lot of time with Aspie kids. They fall through the cracks. Because they are so bright, educators often overlook their needs. Children like my daughter are eligible for an one on one aide, so I didn't get reports of her being bullied or mistreated by other kids. Aspie kids usually don't get these aids because they are so bright and then end up getting harassed.

Let's not forget the type of medications that are generally prescribed for these kids. Parents get reports of their children's OCD behaviors, anxiety, etc. When I relayed what the school said to my daughter's neurologist, she prescribed a SSRI (Selective serotonin re uptake inhibitor). A few months and about 60 lbs later, the poor kid ends up in the hospital and spent a week in a behavioral health center (where NO ONE had any experience with an autistic child even though I specifically told the caseworker at the ER that I wanted someone with experience). This 'health center' was a locked ward and the girls issues were from physical abuse, neglect, alcohol or drug abuse. Definitely not a place for my daughter, they were totally clueless on how to treat her. Once the SSRI were out of her system, she went back to being a little sweetheart (still very impulsive, but she got her personality back). I certainly can understand how a teen considered higher functioning then my daughter could end up doing violent acts while using these SSRIs.

The fact that this kid had AS upsets me because more people are going to shy away from these kids due to fear.

Uncle Sam (talk|edits) said:

23 December 2012
Since you seem to be more knowledgeable about this subject, Cathy - why not

be a consult for the Newtown Police Department and School District and justify this kid's murdering 27 people including his own parent? With or without drugs murder is still inexcusable. I don't have to be educated in childrens' psychological disorders.

What seems to be being discussed in news columns in the area is that his mother was a VOLUNTEER worker in the Sandy Hook school and had some problems with kindergarten children last year - so now he goes into the school to "get revenge" on the kids that gave her trouble. He knew what he was doing apparently when he knew the age of his victims.

Podolin (talk|edits) said:

23 December 2012
CathysTaxes, I don't think you are saying the shooting was justified, but rather that AS may explain it in part. This article http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/adam-lanza-assemble-computer-minutes-article-1.1225845 does a good job of describinh Lanza's behavior around schoolmates. He needed help.

CathysTaxes (talk|edits) said:

24 December 2012
Uncle Sam, no where did I say the kid was justified in murdering those people. May I ask your experience in dealing with individuals with disabilities? Leonard understood what I was saying, perhaps you should go back and reread my post. This kid was in trouble and his mother was a irresponsible gun collector.

Uncle Sam (talk|edits) said:

24 December 2012
Yes - you can ask.

Now that you asked I'll tell you. But I'm not claiming to be an authority like you do.

I have an adopted child - that came from a background you wouldn't be proud of. Birth parents who were substance abuse users, chronic alcoholics, irresponsible productive adults who were high school dropouts - that I've had to raise with my wife from birth with irratic behavior patterns, who because of knowing of being adopted-bullied from grade school that effected an attitude toward school work, studying, and due to a vitamin deficiency we learned about only in high school, had high absenteeism from severe migraine headaches. My child - sophomore year of college - and due to dropping out continually because of not being able to cope with academic work - doesn't even have 1 complete semester of college credit. So I know all about dealing with a child who has emotional, developmental problems. But I don't want anyone reading this to have sympathy or feel sorry for me - this was my misfortune - not anyone else's. But that still doesn't excuse murder. We've had hostile violent behavior patterns, continual regular basis therapist sessions, and still has the same tendencies as in high school and am told this pattern is going to take a long time to heal.

I serve on the board of a local exempt organization whose purpose is to assist people with disabilities.

Now are you satisfied with my experience with individuals with disabilities?

Even if not - I don't want any more crap from you.

CathysTaxes (talk|edits) said:

24 December 2012
And I don't want any more crap from you either. You attacked me with your snide comment. I entitled to respond. I never said having Aspergers Syndrome was an excuse to commit murder. I also never said that I was an authority on it, but I've lived with autism for over 24 years now, so I think I do know something about it.

Many posters were confused on whether or not having AS is a mental illness. The AS itself is not a mental illness, but schools push that children with neurological disorders get medicated and these medications labels do not say "for the relief of behaviors associated with having Autism, or Aspergers (or ADHD etc)". These doctors are basically experimenting with these drugs on kids that aren't even recommended for kids and results can be devastating. I don't know if this kid was medicated, but if you read the link that Leonard posted, you'd see that he needed help and that his brain works differently than yours and mine.

Does that excuse murder? No. If he didn't commit suicide, then there's no way he should be out on the street again, but I do believe that Connecticut is a death penalty state, and I would hope that his issues would have at least kept him off death row.

Uncle Sam (talk|edits) said:

24 December 2012
I answered your question - but you obviously didn't answer mine.

I'm entitled to respond as well.

Did I satisfy you with my experience with individuals with disabilities?

Yes or No

Taxaway (talk|edits) said:

24 December 2012
Too bad most this thread hadn't been created separately from the OP's original message, but it's nice to see the Christmas spirit alive and well on TA.

Snowbird (talk|edits) said:

25 December 2012
On this Christmas morning I think of the tragedy in Conn, the words of the Christmas Carol based on Longfellow's poem come to mind.

"And in despair I bowed my head: "There is no peace on earth," I said, "For hate is strong and mocks the song Of peace on earth, good will to men."

Then pealed the bells more loud and deep: "God is not dead, nor doth he sleep; The wrong shall fail, the right prevail, With peace on earth, good will to men."

Sumwun (talk|edits) said:

25 December 2012
Snowbird, I was not familiar with this poem so I looked it up. On this day, of all days, we must have that hope. Thanks for sharing and Merry Christmas.

Taxaway (talk|edits) said:

26 December 2012
Snowbird, a powerful message. Merry Christmas to you, Sumwum, and everyone on TA.

To join in on this discussion, you must first log in.
Personal tools