Discussion:Spouse signing 8879

This can happen with the 8879 too.

Clients ask me all the time if they can sign. My response to them is that as long as they keep their spouse happy, they won't turn you in to the cops.

The situation David describes is something that can actually happen. Obviously, because it has. lol.

If a client brings the 8879 home and brings it back with two signatures, I am not going through a verification process. Not going to happen.

It happens, it happens at my firm, heck, I've heard stories where the husband once had the audacity to sign and try to cash his paycheck at the bank and the bank told him it wasn't his signature.

Now, on the flip side, if you have reason to believe that the client is doing something inappropriate and they sign for both people in front of you, that might, in some way, make you liable for something.

In that situation, both the RA and the husband were of a southern European descent, and the RA, not knowing what a s___bag the husband was, had lots of sympathy for him, accepting many items on the rental schedule that I could not believe would be accepted. I remember the RA saying "poor bastard, she's really putting the screws to him" when I told him I could not get permission. Good lord, he accepted one item on the telephone even after I offered to mail or fax the document to him.

Difference between men and women I guess.

Right. As long as it's legal, formal permission like a 2848. It's right out of the pub.

In the real world, this happens all the time but like I tell my clients also all the time, it's like driving 85 mph down the freeway for 10 years and never get a ticket. It's still illegal and if you get busted, you're busted. When I'm talking to the wife and the husband is out of town I can tell when the conversation is starting down that path. Before she actually says she's signing for him I will interrupt and say just to let you know, it's illegal to sign for your husband unless you have a POA. Just do what you have to so he can sign it and get it back to me. Usually she get's it and nothing further is said. Sometimes she's too stupid to pick up on it and she continues to tell me how he's not available and she has to sign for him. At that point I'll say I'm sorry you can't do that, wait until he gets back. It usually shows up a few days later, I'll call her and say so you were able to reach him then? Oh yes, I faxed it to him. (Riiiight...) I'll note it in the file. If we actually got caught in a case (or maybe 50 cases?) like this would we really get disbarred for 24 months or something? Who knows but like the old Kansas City mobsters said in Casino when they whacked Alan King's not blood related but still loyal character, "Why take a chance?"

Bob

Tax Attorney that did the seminar told us that it was acceptable for one spouse to sign for the other but it did not relinquish any liabilities. He did go on to say the if became and issue of fraud or something of that nature that the spouse would have to file forgery charges against the signing spouse. Now his words were "if the IRS is investigating for fraud, forgery is the least of his worries"LOL

Personally we have some that will not sign their spouses names but most have no problems, if it is a new client I want to see both of them sign it unless it is someone I know personally . These that "walk in off the street and jump from preparer to preparer each year" we have to see BOTH SIGN THE forms

I see I violated the rules of the forum by not posting the cite. This is from Pub 17:

Other reasons spouse cannot sign. If your spouse cannot sign the joint return for any other reason, you can sign for your spouse only if you are given a valid power of attorney (a legal document giving you permission to act for your spouse). Attach the power of attorney (or a copy of it) to your tax return. You can use Form 2848, Power of Attorney and Declaration of Representative.

The other reasons are things like death, serving in a combat zone, injury or disease etc. The other spouse not being available because it's not convienient is not acceptable whether they're long term clients or not so just expand your last comment to be your rule all the time.

Bob

We used to be a little loose on the signature issue until a few years ago when we had an ugly one.

Taxpayers in middle of ugly divorce we knew nothing about. Wife calls me a month after we had already E-filed saying she wanted to file. I said what do you mean? You filed last month. She knew nothing about it and husband had split with a 6K mostly EIC and credit refund direct deposit! Luckily we had the 8879 where he had forged the signature so we were off the hook. Amd he had taken the form home for her to sign. But after that we always tell the client that we need to have spouses signature and they cannot sign it in our presence. What they do when they take the form home is beyond our control.

Nothing like an ugly one almost blowing up in your face to make you follow the rules!

A good example is I have a friend who uses an investment adviser. This advisor handles many big clients like pro athletes, fairly large business owners and the like. He's good, trustworthy and has an MBA with a Securities license with 40 years experience. He also does lots of taxes. My friend got audited, it was fairly complex and needed to go to appeals. This "pro" adviser was forced to turn her over to a CPA friend of mine to handle the appeal. She was pissed, she swore to me she thought he was a CPA but I looked up his website and no initials there. If someone with years and years of experience, is very good at what he does still has to turn a 25 year plus client over to me or another licensed practitioner to handle a case like this, he's not a tax pro. He's fully capable of studying for and passing the EA exam and he should have imho. But, that's just me. People paying those kinds of fees expect to be taken care of when it hits the fan.

Now you see all kinds of ads saying visit our travel pro's, let our leasing pros put you in a new Lexus, our home decorating pros can really show off your house, etc. Everything is pro. This goes back to the old court case about a chiropractor being called a Doctor. Yes, it seems they can but I never agreed with it. DC's can be very useful, I use one regularly but I don't call him Doctor, I call him Kerry.

I went to the IRS website and clicked on Tax Professionals. In addition to CPA and EA it mentions E-File Providers so I guess if you're an E-File Provider, you meet the IRS definition of tax pro. I stand corrected. This website certainly puts a lot of emphasis on CPA's and EA's especially in their cute little blub in the user info area if you haven't put anything in there yet but it's not exclusive so I stand corrected here also.

Bob

Umk395 you used the phrase Have the clients sign an authorization form allowing one spouse to sign for the other. Again, the only form is a POA. Is there some other acceptable form? If not, then why not use the proper term? It's confusing to people if you don't. A POA is a POA not some "authorization form" but still if one spouse signs a declaration that says something like "I hereby authorize my spouse <Name> to sign our joint tax return for me" does that satisfy the pub? Personally I don't think so because that's not a POA if push comes to shove. Circular 230 is full of stuff like this. Maybe because I'm in the middle of assisting our attorney with a Tax Court case right now I'm focused on this kind of thing. When it goes in front of a judge all of a sudden legal niceties like this becomes very important.

Bob

I would argue that the operative word is the second one of the last sentence. Not "must" but "can." So a POA drawn up by a competent attorney would surely pass muster. Actually, perhaps it wouldn't. We have one "couple" who are divorced but still operate joint bank accounts etc. The ex-wife has had POA for the ex-husband for some years. This past year, the IRS rejected the return (filed on paper) on the grounds that it had not been signed by the taxpayer. They said that the POA was "too old." So the clients did a fresh POA and the IRS accepted that.

Bob

Actually, Goalie, you are misreading this statement. The Form 2848 is used for all sorts of things, including signature permissions and representation. However, when the IRS says that it can "only be used with the IRS" they mean that Form 2848 is not valid as a POA with any other federal or state agency. This is right out of Circular 230.

In order to have a POA that is valid for other agencies or contingencies (other than the IRS), you would need a Durable Power of Attorney.