Discussion:MESSAGE TO NON TAX PROS AND DO IT YOURSELFERS

We pros who use this site are usually more than happy to answer your questions however, it would save everyone time if you would:

1. read the instructions for the form or forms you are trying to fill out

2. specify what you are asking in the summary rather than just saying "taxes" or "tax question" or "someone please help"

3. fill out your profile so we have an idea of your expertise, or experience..."first time preparing", "personal or family returns only", "not a paid preparer", "have done XX years of personal returns"....give us something to work with taxea

           Mcharg5

I agree to what was stated above that some individuals not only post their tax questions but it seems to me that they also pretend that we do their taxes to. (still for free).

Click on "Dctax" in your posts above, then on the page that you are taken to, select the "edit this page" tab at the top. Make your changes and save using the button near the bottom of the edit window.

- Tim Doyle, TaxAlmanac Moderator - Talk to me 15:52, 9 February 2007 (CST)

Anyway, your long distance board reader is my potential local client. And vice versa. D&T, I already gave you know who your address ; )

Well...maybe not always, but if someone states they are NON PROFESSIONAL and has a question, why not answer it or if you don't want to...just leave it alone? On the other hand, if we are in this to make a living, then we can ask questions...but for my 2 cents...I WILL NEVER turn someone away whom I can help...free or not...these people (usually) are just trying to make it the best they can...

SOAPBOX AGAIN...sorry :(

Apparently from what I'm seeing some of you folks want this to be a free for all. You politely chastised me a couple of months ago for ripping in to a DIY'er - when she wasn't honest with her post to begin with and didn't tell us everything until it was squeezed out of her. Why waste time with people looking for free advice? At least with practitioners - who are conversant with tax language - can express factual situations concisely where sense can be made of the facts. Why have a board FOR practitioners if you invite members of the public, students wanting homework help, DIY people who most of the time you can't trust? It doesn't make sense.

How about someone who HAS gone to an accountant, paid the accountant, comes back to this forum and writes very clearly what his situation is, and simply asks for verification so that he feel reassured that what the accountant told him was correct?

I dont make $150-200+/hr to be able to afford paying a bunch of tax pros their fee to tally-up enough answers from them to verify the accuracy of their conclusions.

I presented my situation in a step-by-step manner so that no one here would have to make themselves crazy trying to understand what was going on. Its not THAT complex. I dont see why a qualified person is unable to verify the basis of each person in my situation and say either Yes or No on whether taxes have to be paid:

http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Discussion:%2A_House_Buyout_%2A

Personally, I enjoy the learning experience {the fact that so called 'simple questions' have a lot more going on) and will contribute to the DIY discussion if I think there is more to the question than the other "tax pros" have considered. And I may want to know the ultimate answer for my own curiosity. But why should someone coming to a free discussion board expect us to do 2 or 3 hours of very tough research?

accountant told me.

I repeated the facts numerous times because most of the replies, particularly from a certain, ahem, individual, would never answer them directly.

Re: '2 or 3 hours of tough research': Is my situation so unique in the history of this world, and so obscure whereby parents rarely bequeath or gift houses to their children, that its apparently so difficult to answer a tax question on it? How difficult is it to simply compute the basis for each person in my family? I already did the "enormous" work of adding numbers together, and the occasional use of gasp!-> a fraction, to save someone else from doing it. It should not have to take hours at this point to verify any results, the facts were given clearly, and as Natlaie observed, written repeatedly, so what MORE information is needed?

I have never seen such baffling behaviour in any other profession than I have with accountants so far. As I mentioned before, I am in the electronics field. One site that I regularly visit and have participated in is the forum at www.audiokarma.org Feel "free" (pun intended) to have a look around. No one there is hung up on having to utilize their time helping out other people by answering questions. They dont feel compelled to tell them to pay a technician to diagnose a stereo problem everytime someone asks. I am quite sure it works that way in many other fields where people openly share information. I imagine there are many websites devoted to car enthusiasts, and if someone has a problem say.., with their 'ol carburetor, that many people can share their own experiences or offer advice, rather than to imply its insulting to their profession if they cant make a penny from it by charging money to answer questions.

Again, I saw the accountant and paid him. I am quite willing to give his name and phone #, so that anyone can call and verify that someone named Fred actually went to his office last Saturday at 2:00pm and gave him a check for $100. Other than a receipt, I dont have a thing in writing from him as any kind of proof to show that what he told me is correct. What if I follow his advice- or rather, instruct my brothers to follow his advice, and sometime later the IRS wants to investigate it?-> can I just tell them, Hey thats what the accountant TOLD me? The accountant can simply say he never told me any such thing, or likewise. So, I merely wanted some reassurance that what he told me is correct. Either the numbers for the Basis' are correct or theyre not. There's nothing more I can add to what I already presented. Rather than debate the issue, either someone can answer/verify, or we can just drop it altogether. I already made my point. If someone else cant agree, then fine, think what you want, and we can just agree to disagree. My brother will be speaking to his ex-wife on the phone tomorrow, she is an accountant, so I will be very curious to see what she has to say about it, particularly if its reallt that near-impossible to figure out an answer to the situation. (before any asks: she lives in Florida, so I havent seen her in years, thus why I didnt call her as my first idea. I DID pay for advice. I am NOT paying again for a 2nd opinion. In fact, if it turns out what the accountant told me is wrong, he is going to be seeing me again so that I can retrieve the $100 he took from me).

- Tim Doyle, TaxAlmanac Moderator - Talk to me 12:14, 10 February 2007 (CST)

I tend to give and I get so much in return. That is all I meant by not answering if you don't want to. I agree however that there are "trolls" searching the internet for information that is readily available....sometimes I wonder when I get emails from people who want free information if it is because I am naive when it comes to that and I just find myself giving information to perhaps not even real people with real issues?

I only wish I could send here a "list" of questions someone emailed me; never heard of them before, they do not post here but yet they saw me posting here and have bombarded me with emails about an international issue. I have 12 PAGES of questions they want me to help answer for them...not one page, but 12 PAGES in an excel format with check marks for the (Y/N) answers. I have given them some information over the past 2 weeks, but I think now it is time to say something...maybe...it is wayyy too much research and time to just dole out answers....

You guys have given me so much information, taught me a humility I think I already had but have it more so now and have taught me that each of you is a person and so many of you have knowledge that could fill a library in and of itself. Thank you FRIEND!!

And while you're answering for people, D&T wanted you to help Beatle. Just click on Beatle's thread link. Another 12 pager.

Don't think I even understand Beatle to be honest. Condense it and perhaps I can shed some light. Perhaps not, but when it is too in depth, I sort of lose interest....

Thanks Kevin...want a client (probably free) from Taiwan?

hehe

I started to answer a DIY last night, actually thinking he was a pro. Some kind of question about Closing costs on refinancing rentals, then remembered we'd been down that path. Looked it up and linked it, and did no more. If I can say something about our A-Z index that does make it a bit harder, it is having ALL CAP ENTRIES separate from First Word Capital entries. Nothing we can do about it now, but once or twice I quit researching before remembering that it might be below.

Elizabeth

His rate is $150/hr. I wasnt there for quite a full hour, so he charged me $100. I would have stayed longer and pay him the full $150, but he seemed to indicate that the information he gave me was all that was needed to know in the matter. I merely said in this forum that if he didnt provide me all the aplicable info that I thought I was getting, or wrong information, then I would seek a refund, is there anything unreasonaable about it?

If anyone here wished to call "The Fink", be my guest. Perhaps if you identify yourself as an accountant, he'll tell you the same Info he told me, or maybe he'll acknowledge he doesnt know it all if you bring up issues such as 'acturial tables' which he never mentioned to me. How many accountants does it take to screw in a light bulb, and how many should I keep paying to get the true answer?

Ive decided to put my faith in Kevin, if anybody can do it, HE can. Kevin- Youre the man! You will have my endless gratitude if you can reveal the answer. And think of the joy you'll have in return, knowing that my ass wont get thrown in jail by the IRS, (or rather the brother-Beatles). Its all for a worthy cause :)

Regards,

Sir Frederick

This forum is a place for CPAs, tax preparers, and accountants to discuss tax and accounting issues. As far as I know, Tax Almanac was not set up to be a "get your answers here for free" site for those who do their own tax returns. When you do get the right answers to your questions, consider yourself lucky that someone took the time to give you free answers. We are all very busy right now and really don't have time to answer "freebie" questions.

With that said, does anyone know which way is up?

After finally having read the entire thread and seeing "BeatleFred" post someone's telephone number I wish that Wiki's had a "killfile" feature like newsgroups such that anytime BeatleFred posted something the thread would never show up on my reader.

Nothing wrong with a little humour before things get real busy soon for you guys as the April deadline approaches.

Regarding freebies, I have also been buying variou books at B&Noble having to do with Wills, Estates, and Taxes.

Here's a book I bought a few days ago, what do you think of it?

http://www.amazon.com/What-IRS-Doesnt-Want-Know/dp/067978358X/sr=1-1/qid=1171140054/ref=sr_1_1/105-4434843-8078030?ie=UTF8&s=books

Actually, I'm annoyed. I spent $25 on this book at B&N, and now I see I couldve gotten it at Amazon for less than a buck.

"All You Need Is Love". :)

Frederick. I'm not a pennypincher, but the thing is, if the house buyout goes thru, the 30 yr loan and closing costs will put me on a real tight budget.

YOU guys would not try and accuse me of never having gone to see and pay an accountant.

And by the way, you should edit Mr. Finkelstein's number. Merely because a person has a telephone number in the local phone book does not give YOU the right to post it just because you feel slighted. Is your name and number in your local phone book? If so, you should have no problem posting your information as I have requested it.

You are right to be concerned whether or not the advice you paid for was accurate. You are right to note that you can't rely on that meeting; after all, how do you know what he told you was fully accurate.

The correct way to rely on an accountant's opinion is to get it in writing. Not on an email forum, not verbally from an informal (yet paid for) meeting with an accountant; in writing with citations. You can not rely on email forums or verbal advice in Tax Court.

Written opinions come in two varieties: non-covered, and covered. A covered opinion is any opinion as defined in Circular 230. A noncovered opinion is any other opinion. Both covered and noncovered require disclosures; a covered opinion has about five pages or more of disclosures and can take ten hours or more to write. Opinions cost a lot since you're paying for a lot of time. Fees for opinions start at $1,000 and average $5,000.

The more money you have riding on an iffy question, hte more important it is to pay for an opinion.

Just by describing my whole situation here, I have already revealed alot of personal information. If you want me to tell you my name, number etc.., I'll consider doing it after you call him, and if he denies I ever came to his office.

As for written opinions, if the fee for that is $1K to $5K, well... obviously its not going to happen, unless I happen to hit the jackpot and win the lottery anytime soon. So, does that mean an accountant can tell a client anything he/she wants to, and if its wrong, the accountant has no liability if the client gets in trouble with the IRS?

Sounds like it would be a good idea to me. In my case, I didnt go to the accountant to file my '06 tax return whereby he would have signed anything. It was a consultation, thus nothing official was put in writing. If he was willing to simply write his basis numbers on paper for me to keep, that would be ok with me, but if its something that costs thousands of dollars (a Covered opinion), then obviously no point, I could use that money toward house closing costs instead.

Kevin- remember, I'm counting on you. By golly, I dont wanna end up in the slammer. If that happens and I must accept my fate, promise you'll visit me. Or atleast be my pen-pal.

'The Walrus was Kevin'.

This is nuts. (That's the opinion. Send money.)

In the meantime, I'd like to share with all good tax folks, the Song of the Day. From the 1966 album, 'Revolver', take it away , George :) :

Let me tell you how it will be, There’s one for you, nineteen for me, ‘Cos I’m the Taxman, Yeah, I’m the Taxman. Should five per cent appear too small, Be thankful I don’t take it all, ‘Cos I’m the Taxman, Yeah, I’m the Taxman. If you drive a car, I’ll tax the street, If you try to sit, I’ll tax your seat, If you get too cold, I’ll tax the heat, If you take a walk, I’ll tax your feet. Taxman. ‘Cos I’m the Taxman, Yeah, I’m the Taxman. Don’t ask me what I want it for (ha ha, Mister Wilson) If you don’t want to pay some more (ha ha, Mister Heath), ‘Cos I’m the Taxman, Yeah, I’m the Taxman. Now my advice for those who die, Declare the pennies on your eyes, ‘Cos I’m the Taxman, Yeah, I’m the Taxman. And you’re working for no-one but me, Taxman!

"Sengrag, here is the stupid thing about taxes: Because the laws are subject to interpretation, you could go to different tax professionals and get different answers. If the IRS audits you, you have to argue your point (or have a professional argue for you). If you don't agree with the auditer, you appeal. If you don't agree with the appeal, you go to tax court in the district in which you live. A tax court for your district could decide the answer differently from the tax court in another district, in which case you would have the right to go to the Supreme Court.

All I want is for you to be able to defend your position up to the level that you can afford to defend it. The recommendation to get professional help is so that you can fall back on their expertise to an extent. You are responsible for whatever goes on your tax return, but the tax pro will be able to defend his position up to whatever level he is licensed."

I don't know if they are still doing this, but I participated about 10 years ago and made one major mistake. I missed an important fact regarding a 1099-Misc form issued in December, but the taxpayer received the $25,000 in January. I reported the $25,000 on Sch C, so the total tax was off by $6,620. If I remember right, I believe that I thought he actually had received the money during the year, so I must have misread that part in the documents, probably due to concentrating more on all the other complexities in the return.

There were 45 preparers that year, the target tax was $42,336, mine was $48,956 (14th from the target tax out of 45), the lowest was $36,322, and the highest was (gulp) $94,438.

I never did find out who referred my name to Money, but I think it was somebody from Intuit, back when I was Beta testing the program.

Yea, I was a little hesitant to participate, but the lady from Money persuaded me to, so I did. I was upset with myself for missing that small detail. I found out the results after I drove to the mall one night in mid-February and bought the magazine. The good news concerning that error is the taxpayer would have paid about the same amount of tax the next year as I had calculated in the wrong year. I think only one or two clients saw my name in the magazine, and they are still clients. It was a good learning experience, but I doubt that I'd want to do that again.

The documents I received before starting on this tax return (which is the largest return I've ever prepared) consisted of 18 typed sheets of information (in small type with few line spaces), three W-2s, four 1099-Rs, and one 1065 K-1. Also, four pages of corrections were received from Money at some time after I received the original FedEx package.

Go ask your electronics buddies about your question or your mechanic the next time you have your oil changed...I'm sure that you'll get an answer from one of them!

You might also keep in mind that the folks who you consider to be a bit more sharing than us are selling products (which they mark-up) along with their services which helps defray the free advice they provide (did you ever wonder though if the advice is objective or, perhaps just part of their sales process?) Or, are they so sharing that they're throwing in a free stereo or oil filter when you see them?

And for a beta test...you could also give the IRS a call or visit your local IRS office to ask your question...see what kind of response you get from them...you deserve one since they do work for you don't they?

And, if none of that works go see a qualified practitioner, pay their fee, and get the answer in writing.

Remember...you get what you pay for.

To begin a NEW tax discussion thread question, a person must state that they are a tax professional.

To begin a new accounting thread question, no such requirement.

To ask a question by merely posting to an already existing thread - no such requirement.

Is this what everyone wants: DIY'ers can ask questions if they find an appropriate place to put it, but cannot start a new discussion?

what would be better and would allow the elite that don't want to answer these questions the safety of not being bothered would be to add more forum categories. Categories such as practice buildig. DIY-er area, etc etc etc. the way it is now with Basic and advanced, it's hard to read everything. add more categories and then those of you who are bothered by those types of questions can avoid them.

If I turn on the TV and Oprah is on, I change the channel. I don't sit there complaining and whining and saying that darn, I wish football was on. I stop watching Oprah and switch to ESPN.

I was under the mistaken impression before that any questioner had to answer the "I am a tax pro" question. I was merely pointing out the back doors. Are these intentional or are these OK to leave open?

Fred, we had that discussion last year many times. It was decided to limit the non-professional input. The only question is whether it is being limited enough or not. I take your vote to be YES - don't close any more doors.

I'm with Fred. It's a open forum. We are not obligated to read or respond to any posts we choose not to. Personally, if the heading relates to Reasonable Comp of S Corp or Real Estate - S Corp, I just don't read it. Or I do read it just to see JR's blood pressure go up. It can get hectic here during tax season but that's just the nature of the beast.

Besides, it keeps me from wanting to board a plane to Hawaii, find Natalie and Action, knock on their front doors and smack them over the head with a wet fish for their constant whining about how cold they are out in the Aloha State (inside joke. See the chat discussion). :-0

CrowJD does make a good point. There was someone wanting some very "free" advice that I know I can answer but I won't. I get paid to do this work and for the amount of time it would take me to answer this guy's question, I can do work for a client who is paying me. Since he thinks he was getting "robbed" by his previous preparer and is a DIY'er and now wants a "freebie" from us, I just can't be bothered. I did answer another question over there, but only because it took me 5 minutes to type it. But this guy's attitude was much different than the other individual who posted. I had an earlier post about this type of attitude. You can look for it. Trust me, it's worth reading.

I do agree though that some of the DIY'ers and accounting students who are taking tax can be a downright PITA, but we can ignore them. I do wish they would not be disingenuous and circumvent the rules, but they can do it, so until we can come to some sort of amicable agreement as to the "rules", we are stuck.

Tom

Before the days of Internet, I had a partner whose idea of research was to walk into my office and ask me the question. At least I felt with her that I was preventing problems for our business. With these 'professionals' I feel more like they are taking bread from my table.

By the way, what prevents the DIY from simply stating that they are a professional, like Joetax or something like that?

As Kevin said: It was decided to limit the non-professional input.

The key word there is limit, it's not exclude. I do take pity on some folks who need a reality check against some advice they're getting that doesn't ring quite true. It's good that they can come here. Same for folks who just don't have a lot of other options, or just need a push in the right direction to go get a pro. This time of year, the doors will be stormed, locked or not. It's what it is. As always, ignore what you don't want.

Read my post on the SCorp shareholder loan thread. I'll re-iterate here. I'm finally understanding SCorps after reading, well a ton of material and posts here. Today I got an A on my "test" - twice.

D&T - what's BF?

I was a newbie on this board once like everyone else at one time or another. Once I learned the ropes and the board etiquette, everyone seems willing to lend a hand. Most everyone seems pretty cool actually, especially Natalie and Action because they are just cold out there in Hawaii.

Tom

I think there will always be people who will come in here that one person or another does not like for, well, one reason or another. I'm okay with that. The only time I make an issue out of it is when the person becomes abusive. That type of behavior changes the whole tone of the board in my opinion.

BF is used as the example of what is not wanted on here. But I also remember there was an example of a question that was asked by a DIY that a lot of people learned from.

John Huddleston

The free online tax research resource and community for tax professionals.

I did that, I went to his discussion. I read for about twenty seconds. In my thirty plus years providing tax services, I have learned how to get these types out of the office in less than five minutes. I don't provide free advice. I don't tell strangers at parties I am a tax accountant. I have no obligation to these people. I read his tax man song above. He/she should be blocked from the service. Thats how I feel about it.

A couple of weeks ago -a retired Naval officer, didn't want to consult with his accountant, but wanted US to give him answers to questions by playing "let's pretend" as if that's what we're here for. The other day, someone else wanted us to give him an AE & P answer - because he wanted to do it himself by copying what his prior accountant did - the guy who "robbed him". When I see these arrogant, snotnose, selfish people wanting free advice and using us to provide specific information without us knowing all the actual and factual information - it literally turns me off - and those of you who answer them show disrespect to the rest of us who utilize this board as an information exchange - otherwise - don't claim that it's a board for tax professionals.

While I respect your opinion to not answer the questions posted by non-professionals and to have a stance against them participating here, I don't think name calling is appropriate on TaxAlmanac. If TaxAlmanac is to be a site for professionals, this is a good place to start.

- Tim Doyle, TaxAlmanac Moderator - Talk to me 09:23, 1 February 2008 (CST)

First, I can say that I truly appreciate all the help I have received here. Everyone has been more than helpful.

Second, if I post about something it usually is that it lies in the grey area and I want to be sure that I don't make any mistakes. It ISN'T that I am trying to get you to do my work for me. Often, I will post my take on the situation and my take on the treatment and more or less am seeking validation of my stance. For instance, I was trying to hash out the Accounting issues for a Evangelical ministry that neither qualified as a Church or a minister. You guys helped me immensely.

Third, I will often post something looking for alternative ideas. Several times, others have pointed me to some little known idea that has really helped. I think as a community, this forum is great. What we must realize is that not everyone is a seasoned expert and each industry we perform tax work or accounting work for is different. So what may seem like a rookie question to you (because you do a lot of work in that particular area) may be an area of weakness for another. Remember even the best Accounting colleges rarely spit out an Accountant who is fully self-sufficient enough to run their own practice from day 1 without help of some sort.

Lastly, I will sometimes post something here if it is an area that I don't feel perfectly comfortable about. For instance, I put a post out about the NASE 105 plan. The problem isn't that I couldn't find any information about the section 105...I just couldn't find any information about the NASE organization's take on it. What little research I found suggested that some people were questioning the validity of the NASE stances. However, the NASE information is fairly well guarded so I can't read their stances. So I posted and unfortunately no one answered so I moved on.

Thanks to all who help on these boards. Just remember that at some point in your career you were a newby and while you may not have been posting on a board like this for help, you were bugging the heck out of SOMEONE! :D Helping others tends to come back around so thanks to all that have helped me.

Michael

Right on....I have no complaints about the help I have been given and I hope I am not in anyone's mind as an abuser of the system.

Michael

The free online tax research resource and community for tax professionals.

Tell you what Tim Doyle - just change the last three words of the above logo when opening the site, say it's for everyone - and I'll have no gripes. Fair enough?

Note: "The free online tax research resource and community for tax professionals."

It has become clear to me most of the questions lately are not from tax professionals. I am not in the mind set to give free advise to non-professionals. Our knowledge is how we make our living. To have someone who is not a professional seek advise in these forums is not in my opinion why I am here. Therefore, I am going to limit my participation, well at least to whom I answer.

Did not see the question, but does not surprise me that someone could be a 10 years CPA and have problems with S corp. If the person was on a Big 5 audit team doing 1 Fortune 50 firm for 10 yes... not much exposure to s corps. I spent my career in a Fortune 50 firm, understand the S corps but not the nuances. I do agree that many answers can be found in a good guide (such as The Tax Book) or even by searching IRS websit. So thanks from all us old retreads for being nice! :)

Snowbird 18:39, 2 February 2008 (CST)

That's what I was saying as well. I have been out of the business for about 10 years now and am getting in on a limited basis to supplement income. I spent all day yesterday creating a spreadsheet for my new client detailing their federal and state income requirements, other state income reporting requirements, various state sales and use tax requirements, deductions that they will be taking which have difficult issues (home office deduction, vehicle expenses, etc.), and I created a personalized calendar for them--with appropriate lead times--so that we don't miss any dates. Much of it was review on my part and I will be able to use it for all my other clients so it was time well spent.

While doing so, I didn't have difficulty with the tax laws. What I had difficulty with was making a determination when the facts of their situation didn't exactly match the IRS rules. It is kind of like "if you have business meals expenses while wearing a red sweater, the meal is deductible" but the problem is that my client was wearing a maroon sweater. That kind of grey matter grey area stuff.

Those are the things that I come here for....

Michael

To be sure, I am not talking about those who have paid dues by working for big firms or in corporate accounting and have degrees etc. This group knows what it is to research, but the 'Hey, I bought Turbo Tax at Staples, put up a sign and now here we go' people are going about it all wrong.

To anyone like this I say, work for another professional for a year or two before giving it a try; if Block or Liberty do not meet your need, there are other smaller professionals who'd love to have busy season help, and if you've got what it takes, they might keep you on after.

My favorite sign was a little hole in the wall shop on the side of a country highway I saw one time that said "Tax Preparation and Lawnmower repair". Now, that guy could be the best Accountant known to man, but something tells me that he might be lacking. :D

I think that someone fairly well versed in research could use Turbo tax to do most personal returns that have the normal deductions. However, once you get into schedule C and beyond, I think it takes someone specifically educated to get it 100% right. Still, I think that audits of returns has found 70% of returns prepared by CPA's and other professionals had errors of some sort.

I kind of hit the jackpot with my current customer, they have all the golden tickets of tax: home office deduction, multistate income, multistate sales and use taxes, employee versus sub issues, and a few more. It has been an education to say the least and a review and refinement of what I knew a while back. I think I am doing quite well and my client seems absolutely pleased.

Take care all!

Michael

My favorite sign was a little hole in the wall shop on the side of a country highway I saw one time that said "Tax Preparation and Lawnmower repair". Now, that guy could be the best Accountant known to man, but something tells me that he might be lacking. :D

I think that someone fairly well versed in research could use Turbo tax to do most personal returns that have the normal deductions. However, once you get into schedule C and beyond, I think it takes someone specifically educated to get it 100% right. Still, I think that audits of returns has found 70% of returns prepared by CPA's and other professionals had errors of some sort.

I kind of hit the jackpot with my current customer, they have all the golden tickets of tax: home office deduction, multistate income, multistate sales and use taxes, employee versus sub issues, and a few more. It has been an education to say the least and a review and refinement of what I knew a while back. I think I am doing quite well and my client seems absolutely pleased.

Take care all!

Michael

do your client appreciate your sense of humor?

I always click on all topics, but really, add more categories. Instead of basic tax, how about non-tax people posting place. I still think it is more of an elitist attitude as opposed to just ignoring the DIYers.

I for one love posting on the forum and reading the responses and actually consider a few of you internet friends. Many of you are very knowledgeable and offer great advice. I have actually landed DIYer client because of this site. He came here, asked questions, and contacted a few of us because he liked our response.

Many of us are knowledgeable in our own respective areas and yes, we should get paid for our time, but this is not a paid forum. It is a free and open forum. Regardless of the title. There are many moderated sites where people can go if they want exclusivity.

first we get rid of the DIYers because their questions aren't smart to us. Then, we might as well get rid of the newbie accountants because, hey, they should be learning this stuff on their own. Will this then become the forum for just the over 20 year experience or extremely smart crowd. yes, this stuff works me up and no disrespect is meant to anyone, but I really really hate this kind of garbage.

I hate excluding the many because of the few. Yes, a few idiots post here, ignore them. By helping people out, we further our profession in a good way. By being elitist, we look like jack a$$e$.

I get calls at the office for free advice, people coming by asking for forms. Do I like accomodating them. No, but I do, because I feel that my generosity will come back via word of mouth, through karma or through whatever.

Add a DIYer area instead of a basic area and then those of you who don't want to, can ignore it.

I would also love to see more specific areas, such as practice management, non-profit, and other similar types. would make it much easier to follow some threads.

How true! I should have known that!

It is kind of like the time where I told my wife that if I were ever planning to do her in, I would fly her to California to do it (LA to be precise) and make sure that we get there by going from Atlanta to Chicago and then Chicago to LA. Why? I would seek to avoid Texas airspace at all costs lest they get wind of what I had done, extradite me, and hang me before sundown! :D

Michael

I would clarify that by saying by helping out fellow professionals...

My concept of this site was for professionals to help out professionals. By no means does every professional have the expertise to understand every subject under the tax law.

Yes - I do agree - set up a separate section for the DYIers if you don't wish to exclude anyone - but keep them out of the "for members only" section - then this board can drop the "for tax professionals" on its logo.

Do you hear that Tim Doyle?

When you said "By no means does every professional have the expertise to understand every subject under the tax law" it reminds me of how years ago (20+ years) I used to able to rattle off the top of my head the brackets, deductions, corp tax brackets and so many different things about. Those days are long over.

I agree we are a community to help other professionals and not DIY'ers. See some of the earlier posts above about the DIY'ers who really are the issue. If they think we are arrogant, so be it. I don't think we are as a general rule. After all, some of the advice they are getting is what some of us feed our families on.

See this discussion to see what I mean. It was my tirade in early January on PITA clients. This can also apply to DIY'ers who used accountants, EA's, etc in the past and now use the canned software because they think we professionals are trying to "steal" from them.

Discussion:Ugh! I hate when client's meet their friend's

Tom

I like the idea of setting up a DIY forum, but I don't think we should add more forums than that. The tax forum is the most popular, and just about everyone knows that if they want something to be read by the most people, they put it there regardless of the topic. Fred, are you using the bookmark feature?

Thanks again for your time.

Good luck.

Yay giants

Maybe you can think of other characteristics ...

Snowbird 07:48, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Ironically, there are yet some significant differences.

When we Accountants hand our clients our bill, they often react as if we were plying the world's oldest profession on them! 8-)

However, when the practitoners of the world's oldest profession bill their clients, the clients never complain. You never hear, "$50? What, do you think you are an Accountant or something?"

Michael

It may dependent on what you call a professional. Is someone who does a few simple tricks on weeks for a little extra cash a professional? Or it is someone that services some high power clients? I have had experience with TurboTax, Lacerte, Proseries, and HR Block. Also, in a previous life, I lead a user team in a large software development project ... told the developers how screens should look and operate.

Anyway, TurboTax is very light weight when it comes to forms and so forth. But, it operates as you would expect a Widows software to perform ... therefore, the learning curve is short on how to run the software. Whereas, I find the so called "professional software" rather clunky as to how they operate. They remind me of software written for a main frame, mini-computer and/or DOS, and unwilling to move to a true windows environment. The learning curve on the software functions are kind of steep.

So, I don't think it is the software that mades the professional,but the knowledge. It is kind of like the old days when programmers though if you did not write in binary, you were really not programmer. Have you done a simple tax on TurboTax?

What I meant was the person who buys software without taking educational courses. When I hired a woman to do data-entering for me, I paid to have her attend the Block course. Say what you will about Block's preparation, at that time (1998) the course was an excellent grounding. Community colleges give such courses too.

Hey, I began tax preparing sitting in a check-cashing office in a transit terminal at a card table, doing them by hand with carbon paper!!!! And a hand cranked adding machine too!!!! But I had a degree and was out of the Army and had nothing better to do.

http://www.getsmileyface.com/new/animal/64.gif

Tom

"i'm taking the 5th"

that's my 2 cents :)

Back to taxes.

Will

http://www.getsmileyface.com/new/angry/33.gif

or this:

http://www.getsmileyface.com/new/angry/32.gif

or maybe this:

http://www.getsmileyface.com/sm/mad/623.gif

but, I really think it was this these:

http://www.getsmileyface.com/sm/violent/sterb003.gif

http://www.getsmileyface.com/sm/violent/sterb032.gif

http://www.getsmileyface.com/sm/violent/sterb008.gif

http://www.getsmileyface.com/sm/violent/sterb026.gif

Tom

Maybe the poser will venture into here, so I say "No, you do not have to take your 401K at 70.5 if you are continuing to work for the company that offers it."

Tom

And I don't really mind helping some of the DYI's; but the ones with that sense of entitlement that feel they are OWED an answer....different issue (different societal issue too - for discussion after tax season, on the patio, with wine). I can see where this issue gets more heated as April 15th approaches.

I found this site in 2006. I want you to know how valuable this site has been to me a non-tax person. I have used it to find out what questions I should be asking my tax pro and what I should be doing and not doing. Your knowlege is deeply appreciated.

I have a special interest in trust and estate income tax reporting, and I can't find another forum anywhere that does more than just touch on it. I've learned a great deal here, though.

Unfortunately, some of us out here get bent out of shape when we don't hear from you what we think we ought to hear. But that's all part of the learning process. Keep up the great work!

I thought my idle hands responded to this last night, but post went away. Maybe I did have some of Tom's Magic Mushrooms. Not sure what happened. Now, my rant will be difficult to re-create. But, it was something about how it is wrong to condemn all because of the sins of a few. We do this in society and I would hope that we would be more enlightened here and try not to follow the same path. We make rules and regulations for people to follow, then with the the bulk of the population following these rules, there are the few who don't. Rather than go after them, we make more rules to beat down the others who do follow the rules. Then, when those rules aren't followed by the same people, we make more rules. That is something I hate. It is just wrong.

How many drunk repeat offenders do we have out there driving constantly. No new law is going to stop them. They will continue and continue to drink and drive. They may have 5 DWI's and still have a license. You go to a party and have one drink and get behind the wheel and you can go to jail. Don't get me wrong, drunk driving should never be done, but one beer on wine shouldn't be criminal. Enforce what we have already.

What it comes down to is choices. Because you choose to read every post whether pertinent or not, shouldn't be the reason shouldn't be a reason to exclude others. for those coming her to seek help, those that are respectful and don't kill kittens, to be chased away is just wrong.

We bitch and moan about people complaining about our fees, well part of ther reason they do is because they don't know what we do. The ones that come here and learn, will appreciate us more and when they realize it's not always a do it yourself world, they will respect our fee structure more.

One of the reasons I like the DIYer's is that sometimes they ask some very good questions that get us going on some good conversations. I hate exclusionary places to begin with, I have said it before and will say it again. Don't exclude the DIYer's, Give them a specific place to post questions, then, you won't have to pick and choose, you can just skip over them. Give them an "Ask the expert" area. Give them a "DIYer" area.

You say you're newer, well have you ever read a DIYer post and then found out you learned something because some answered their question? If it's only experts here, then the level of tax conversation is going to be way up here. Won't be very useful to the newbies either because after the DIYer's are gone, we are not going to want to answer questions for the newly hired. Then, when they are gone, we won't want to answer questions for the junior accountants, then who will we come for? Eventually there won't be anyone else left.

Yes, my examples are a bit extreme and absurd, but it's about exclusion and elitism and a we are better attitude and that in itself is absurd. It's absurd to continue wasting energy and time debating these things. Especially when the solution I suggested is so very simple to add. Then those that don't want to be bothered don't need to be.

Now, with all that being said, I do enjoy the flaming of the DIYer's and the kids in class asking the silly questions without abiding by the rules of the forum. See, they are the ones to target, not the rest of the good folk DIYer's, the people exploring this field as a future place of employment and people just wanting to get more information before going to their tax pro.

<stepping down from soapbox as there is another knock on my door>

This thread began with a message to DIY & newbie posters to simply give us a little background on themselves & turned into a rant about people looking for a freebie. Again - we are all free not to respond.

I totally agree and enjoy the flame ons when a condescender posts or whenever the situation warrants.

But a blanket, no posting unless you are a pro. fuhgeddaboutit, at least in my most humble opinion.

I like the idea of a DIY area, not sure if it would really work but worth a try. I HAVE learned a lot from the DIY posters; h*ll, I have clients that, at times, I think know more than I do about taxes :-).

And I hope, in the future, when I gain a bit more confidence in my knowledge, to answer more & more questions. To contribute rather than just benefit from this forum.

My beef is with the attitude cases, and the ones that don't put any effort into finding the answer themselves. MY personal soapbox is usually pulled out for use when folks think they are "entitled" to anything/everything. That, and healthy people parking in handicapped spots, or kicking puppies.

Now I'm going to go read all the new posts to see what I can learn.

My tax practice is not my full-time job. I teach accounting at a local community college as well as being department chair. I do the research but it is limited as I don't subscribe to any research services. Until this past October, I had my father, a very experienced retired CPA, to fall back on for my gray areas. But sadly he passed away and I am truly missing him this tax season.

I discovered this board last year when we hit a gray area that both he & I could not figure out despite all our research. This board has been a godsend. I have learned new things as well as discovered things I had been wrong about. I read this board almost daily to expand as well as reinforce my tax knowledge. For those of us who work on our own we need this voice of experience at times.

Thanks to all of you.

As I reflect on this board topic it reminds me of my students' questions. They will ask questions that clearly could be answered if they read the chapter. If you ask if they have read, they are very honest in saying no! Anyone who says there is no such thing as a stupid question has never been a teacher!

As far as the homework questions go, the students should simply do their own work. This is not the place for homework questions. And Meganne, I have never been a teacher. I did, however, have teachers who told the class that there was no such thing as a stupid question.

You will not get branded and you have just done what I have discussed that is wrong with society. You have lumped the lot of us in with a select few who don't appreciate DIYer's. Not fair at all, wouldn't you agree?

You have read this thread and it is a continuing debate/educational process for all. Minds change through putting forth additional ideas and concepts. Rather than just complaining and griping, identify an issue and put forth a solution. I have done that, hopefully, the powers that be will agree and add a DIYer, Ask an Expert area for these things will be added.

There are those here that want only tax pros and will offer both sarcasm and advice as well. I actually enjoy reading the sarcasm as purely technical reading is boring as he$$. Understand that questions usually do get answered and as in any public forum, you need to wade through different things until you get what you are looking for.

Keep reading and welcome.

So perhaps we should all (myself included !) take a deep breath and reread before we post anything other than a useful answer to a question. Except for the humorous stuff, of course. The DIY's with the snotty attitudes will just go away if we collectively ignore them rather than engaging them (see the thread on insolvant (sic) S-corp for a recent example). The DIY's with legitimate questions, even the very basic ones that we (collectively) choose to answer, will appreciate our help and may turn into clients somewhere down the road for some tax professional.

With that, I have to attempt to get 17 corp returns done in the next week, so adios, my friends.

Go forth and finish taxes.

I give the same discount - hubby was a firefighter for 27 years, and I have a big weakness for those guys.

Belle, I no understanda you comment. The recipe and fire story was a poke at JD and his garlic bread fiasco. Search for Garlic bread and hannah montana before another kitty perishes.

You meant me.

And it wasn't the garlic bread I burnt. It was bacon.

Now back to our regulary scheduled program...

Tom

Tom

Soon, you will all realize that if everyone just listened to me, the world would be a much better place. <G>

I am absolutely with you on the Ask the Expert/DIY area. It's the best idea. It will address a big concern of ours and it will keep us from having to stop posting, "Please fill out your profile..."

Maybe Tim could put together a "Household Hints" area. You think he will let me moderate the Kitchen Forum?

Tom

See, I think the issue is some just don't like reading through the DIYer questions. If they were in another section, those of us that don't mind will continue and those of us that do, don't need to.

I don't pretend to be all knowing or one who knows all the answers. I enjoy reading some of their questions, because sometimes an answer will be given that will reinforce what I know or will actually explain something that I actually didn't know and thought I did.

As a society, we always try to create complex solutions where a simple answer will work.

And yes, we get annoyed at these people seeking "free" advice, but what "WE" need to remember is that if it wasn't for these people that rely on us, we'd have to find other means of earning a living. We might even have to go work for the government and then we'd be doing nothing all day but post on websites and send email funnies.

And then there are those questions that reinforce and we learn something from and I am not opposed to that at all.

Tom

It is scary when they ask a question that communicates they have no clue what the fundamentals are. I think it bothers many in this group as many of us take pride in doing it right.

There have been many threads posted by DIYs that fit this category.

this is as opposed to the go &%#$ yourself for bothering us, can't you see you need professional tax help attitude we hit them with.

I think we hit them with that attitude because we get frustrated with our own clients and these DIYers are easy prey for the frustration venting.

I think more of us should purchase the bozo bopper.

My 2 cents

To Do-It-Yourself Posters:

I ask you read this, take it to heart and understand what we professionals at TaxAlmanac would like you to know about us, this site and our feelings about questions and responses posted to this online forum. I will caution that while this is my own treatise, I write it based on postings, discussions, responses and thoughts that been posted by many over several weeks, months and a couple of years.

Many of you have jobs. You get paid. You like to receive a fair days wage for a fair days work. You don't appreciate it when someone is reaching into your pocket and taking money from you. You look upon it as taking "food off your table." You don't give away your abilities for free nor do we expect you to do so or ask you.

This is our livelihood. We generate income from it. Many of us have trained for years, spent considerable amounts of time, energy, resources (i.e. money) to become certified, licensed, etc. and we must maintain those certifications to continue to practice. This site is not designed for free tax or business advice. It is designed for tax/accounting professionals to exchange ideas or questions for us to do our jobs better. While many of us may not miss a meal if we give a "freebie" now and then, it needs to be understood that not everything in life or on the Internet is free.

You might think you have an easy situation. Some posters actually have more difficult situations and need professional advice. If we tell you to seek professional advice, it is in your best interest to do so, to save you time, aggravation and most importantly, YOUR MONEY ($$$$$)! We have no idea who you are, where you are and so we have no idea if you are going to walk in our door. We make no money off referrals here on this site. This site is not designed for us to generate any business.

We also don't write the tax laws. Your Congressional representatives do. If you have a complaint about those laws, please be sure to contact them. You can do so here:

https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml

Also, if you don't like the laws, use your power and vote. Change will only come if you express your disapproval by voting those in power out.

Our goal is to be helpful. What you might interpret as rude is us sometimes being straightforward and honest with an answer. Sometimes, we speak in plain terms for you to understand. It is not a reflection on your intelligence. You might be the very best and brightest in your field. Many of us are very good and the best at what we do in the tax/accounting profession. Our economy is complex and as a result, so is our country's tax law. It is our desire to have you understand that tax law is complex and therefore your best alternative is to seek a professional advice before you make what could amount to a costly mistake when we direct you to do so. Please note that as Kevinh5 says "TAX SOFTWARE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A GOOD TAX PROFESSIONAL." His words of wisdom are very appropriate. Certain types of professional advice are outside the scope of this forum as we cannot possibly know all the facts that pertain to your situation in a short message posted here. Please be mindful of that and know we are only trying to be helpful.

The best thing for you to do is pay attention to the following advice:

1. First to tax professionals: Upon registering, please complete a profile. It is important that you do so. Here's something to show you how to do it:

Discussion:TO TAX PROFESSIONALS - PLEASE READ

2. For those who are preparing their own return: Please search the Forum first before posting. Right underneath the TaxAlmanac logo is a yellow box under the header "Search." Please look here first by typing in one or two words that describes your situation. Your question has probably been ask and answered already. Also try here:

http://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/index.jhtml

http://www.irs.gov

3. If your question involves off-the-shelf software programs such as TurboTax or TaxCut, please go to their websites. Here are their links:

http://turbotax.intuit.com/

http://www.taxcut.com/

4. If the answer is not what you want to hear, please do not argue with us. Again, we don't make the laws. It will also cause our forum posts to degenerate into a contest of wills and posts filled with rude responses. We don't need or want that. It's not appropriate.

5. We need not answer or respond to your post. If we do not, please do not follow-up with a post attacking us. See #4 above.

6. Please note the TaxAlmanac Terms of Use and Code of Conduct found here:

Code of Conduct

TAXALMANAC.ORG WEBSITE USE AND CONTRIBUTION TERMS

7. If we tell you to seek a tax professionals help, you would be wise to do so. We mean this sincerely.

To my TaxAlmanacers: I apologize for overstepping any bounds but I just wanted to write this to help the newbies, the DIY'ers and even us who sometimes need a reminder of why we come here.

Best wishes,

Tom

Tom, thank you. You are absolutely right. To all the experts that have been helping other tax professionals for years: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I work by myself and sometimes even though I think I know the answer I want some reassurance that I am in the right path. It's like asking your mentor or someone you know that has a lot of experience, but here that force is compounded by the unlimited pool of knowledge of the wonderful professionals that so generously are donating their time and talent. I don't feel so alone here in my tiny office. THANK YOU GUYS!!!

Tom's "cooking" Sound the alarm.

Thanks for the kind comments.

No, I didn't cook last night. Wish I had. I want a steak very badly right now.

Tom

Nice work, Tom.

I move that that section get thumbtacked to the top of the threads.

Thank you for your efforts in updating the page this morning.

Tom

THANK YOU CPA-PROFFESSIONALS who are actively giving good advices to new practioners like me.

I prep tax alone, and often need help from you all, so please don't yell if I'd ever ask stupid questions :-).

It is tough when having 2 small girls (4&5), no time to accomplish anything! I wear many hats -- working fulltime, and being a mom, a wife fulltime -- making sure the house is always clean and to cook dinner for the family every day :-).

We are not "just a tax preparer". We are tax preparers. Say it with pride.

With 290 posts or so, and most from 'just tax preparers,' what "NON TAX PRO or DO IT YOURSELFER" is going to have the patience to wade through the bilge to reach Tom's elegant post? Could someone repost it as a new discussion, and the rest of us 'wallet lighteners' (as I like to call myself) forbear from commenting except to bump it up the board each day?

I agreed with DT, the admin can post Tom's message on top of the "tax questions" forum so everyone could see it without having to look for it. Thank you!

h+r block has numerous tax "preparers"

regarding the EA exam i would say take 2-3 weeks of time alone and just study the review questions, and take practice exams if you have been in the tax profession for a while it should really help you pass the exam.

h+r block has numerous tax "preparers"

regarding the EA exam i would say take 2-3 weeks of time alone and just study the review questions, and take practice exams if you have been in the tax profession for a while it should really help you pass the exam.

h+r block has numerous tax "preparers"

regarding the EA exam i would say take 2-3 weeks of time alone and just study the review questions, and take practice exams if you have been in the tax profession for a while it should really help you pass the exam.

Besides being a 'wallet lightener,' I also go by the moniker, 'the man behind the curtain' as in 'pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.'

I always thought the word "Wallah" was interesting, and would love to be a 'Tax Wallah." It's all explained here:

http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/209840

Tom

And for Tax Pros who need help with their profiles, here's the directions on how to do it.

Tom

Post a profile. What's the big deal.

I would be in favor of a total ban on responses to those with NO profile.