Discussion:Calling all S Corp SEHI deduction experts!
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Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Calling all S Corp SEHI deduction experts!
10 May 2011 | |
Searched high and low, but couldn't find this scenario...
My client is a 2%+ shareholder/employee in an S-corp. His company provides a health plan and splits the premiums 60/40. The 60% paid by the S corp. is reported as income on the W-2 and in Box 14. The 40% paid by the sh is also reported as income, but only appears on the year-end paystub as a post-tax deduction, and is excluded from Box 14. It is clear that the 60% reported in Box 14 should be deducted as SEHI on 1040 Line 29 (2010), but unclear (to me) if the 40% paid by the employee can also be deducted... since it is technically still reported as income and is for a plan established by the S corp? It seems like that portion of the employee income would still be considered a "guaranteed payment" to the sh subsequently used for health premiums. Some posts seem to indicate that Notice 2008-1 alludes to this scenario, but I tend to relate that more to insurance NOT established by the S corp but paid for (externally) by the shareholder and then reimbursed by the S corp. If the full amount IS deductible, then shouldn't the company be including the full portion for 2% shareholders in Box 14? |
10 May 2011 | |
Yes, absolutely the 40% is deductible. It was included on his W2, was pursuant to employer's health insurance arrangement, etc. Company could include all 100% in Box 14, but I don't think that matters much. |
10 May 2011 | |
Thanks for the quick and concise response. That is the answer my "gut" has been telling me, but I have been struggling to back it up with documentation. In the excerpt below (from Notice 2008-1), it states that the S Corp must MAKE the premium payments or the SH must get reimbursed. In the case of the 40% portion in my previous post, I am being challenged that the SH is making the payments with post-tax money and is NOT being reimbursed, effectively failing both tests. What am I missing that backs up your statement (which I believe to be true)? Can the fact that the payments are being deducted from payroll and paid by the S Corp with SH money be the key?
A plan providing medical care coverage for the 2-percent shareholder-employee in an S corporation is established by the S corporation if: (1) the S corporation makes the premium payments for the accident and health insurance policy covering the 2-percent shareholder employee (and his or her spouse or dependents, if applicable) in the current taxable year; or (2) the 2-percent shareholder makes the premium payments and furnishes proof of premium payment to the S corporation and then the S corporation reimburses the 2-percent shareholder-employee for the premium payments in the current taxable year. If the accident and health insurance premiums are not paid or reimbursed by the S corporation and included in the 2-percent shareholder-employee’s gross income, a plan providing medical care coverage for the 2-percent shareholder-employee is not established by the S corporation and the 2-percent shareholder-employee in an S corporation is not allowed the deduction under § 162(l). |
Harry Boscoe (talk|edits) said: | 10 May 2011 |
The employer is making 100% of the premium payment. The employer is paying both the 60% and the 40% parts of the premium payment. More later. The river is at the door. |
11 May 2011 | |
the S Corp must MAKE the premium payments or the SH must get reimbursed
(Key word "MAKE") Who "made" the premium payments - That is, who physically wrote the checks to the insurance company - corp or shareholder? Corp did. This rule you reference is designed to weed out those shareholders who don't physically run (make) the premium payments through the corp (and there were many of us that did this prior to Notice 2008-1). I.E. Shareholder has a personal medical insurance policy, he doesn't physically run the premium payments through his S-corp. Instead, shareholder "makes" all premium payments personally and takes the deduction directly on his 1040. This won't work for the exact reason you cite (among others). |
Harry Boscoe (talk|edits) said: | 11 May 2011 |
Is 100% of the insurance premium paid, to the insurance company, by the corporation? Is 40% of that amount withheld from the shareholder/employee's paycheck? Is that withholding of 40% of the premium "after tax"? |
Harry Boscoe (talk|edits) said: | 11 May 2011 |
I'm going to answer this question as if a cafeteria plan does not apply (since the OP says that 40% of the premium is being taken out of the shareholder/employee's paycheck "after tax"). In that case, the employee can claim a deduction only on his Schedule A for the 40% of the premium that he's paid. And also, the employer and the employee both get to pay FICA tax on that amount of the employee's W-2. A cafeteria plan would have been better all around. But it's too beautiful a day outside for me to explain how or why. |
11 May 2011 | |
In that case, the employee can claim a deduction only on his Schedule A for the 40% of the premium that he's paid.
How do you come to that conclusion? Also, 2% S-corp shareholders can't participate in a 125 plan. |
Harry Boscoe (talk|edits) said: | 11 May 2011 |
Looks like he's screwed then. |
11 May 2011 | |
Is 100% of the insurance premium paid, to the insurance company, by the corporation? Is 40% of that amount withheld from the shareholder/employee's paycheck? Is that withholding of 40% of the premium "after tax"? Knowing these facts will help us. The answer to all these questions is yes, isn't it... Answer to all above is YES. As for comments on the 125 plan, the S Corp does have a 125 plan setup for regular employees (and < 2% SH). It is 60/40 for ALL employees under the plan. The difference for 2%+ SH is that the 40% deducted on the paycheck is POST TAX and the 60% portion is reported in Box 1, 3, 5 and 14 of the W-2 (although I think the Box 3/5 inclusion is incorrect in this case). I am unsure if the 60% portion still comes through a 125 plan for the 2% SH, but I don't think this is allowed. Thanks for all comments... I'm not sure if I'm any closer to a definitive answer though!! :) |
11 May 2011 | |
Last time I checked, you can still discriminate with health plans. Why is the "S" shareholder paying 40% of the premiums? (the only prohibition that I am aware of is if the insurance contract requires him to pay 40%) |
May 11, 2011 | |
The discrimination days are ending, you must have a grandfathered plan or no longer free to discriminate by anything. |
11 May 2011 | |
I think the S Corp just chose to have all employees (included 2% SH) pay the same portion of health premiums. My understanding is that discriminating between classes would cause premiums to be subject to FICA. In this case, the S Corp is reporting the premiums for the entire 100% in Boxes 3 and 5, which I believe to be incorrect. However, for my client this is a small concern because SS is already maxed out and Medicare is only 1.45% whereas his deduction for his portion of the premiums is significant. |
11 May 2011 | |
TaxLes, if you're still uncertain, call the person that wrote Notice 2008-1 and then report back to us. But as an FYI, I do a few 1040's for individual clients whose S-corp returns are prepared by other firms. And what these firms do, at the end of the year, with the guy's last paycheck, is this: They figure the amount of health insurance that's been paid on behalf of the shareholder by the corp and then they reduce the shareholder's net after-tax pay by said amount. This means that the health insurance was included in the shareholder's income.
As an FYI - You wind up with the exact same result under the above method as you would under the standard method (with the standard method being "corp makes payment and simply puts it on the guy's W2"). And when I say "same result," I'm talking on the corp's end (wage deduction) and on the shareholder's end (W2). |
11 May 2011 | |
If you think about it, it doesn't matter if the 40% is an after-tax deduction (for federal income tax) and the 60% is an employer contribution because the entire amount ends up being an after-tax deduction (for federal income taxes) due to the fact that >2% SH fringes have to be included in their W-2 income. Thus, in the end there is no employer contribution, its all an after-tax deduction from the >2% SH's pay. Given this, I'm in total agreement with Ckenefick: so long as the entire premium has been remitted by the S-Corp and the entire premium been included the SH's W-2, the entire amount is eligible for the SEHI deduction on the 1040.
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11 May 2011 | |
60/40 for regular employees is 60% paid by S Corp (not reported as income) and 40% PRE-TAX payroll deduction under §125 (not reported as income).
Thanks to all for the input. I will include 100% of the premiums as an SEHI deduction on my client's 1040. I will also be amending his 2008 and 2009 returns to do the same. Furthermore, I will recommend the following to the S Corp: 1. Re-investigate their reporting of health premiums as income in Box 3 and 5 for 2% SH. 2. Include in Box 14 the amount for post-tax, payroll-deducted health premiums for 2% SH (this would be the 40% -- they already include the 60%). Agree? |
11 May 2011 | |
I think this wording from Notice 2008-1 brings some clarity to this issue. It is as follows:
Section 106 provides an exclusion from the gross income of an employee for employer-provided coverage under an accident and health plan. A 2-percent shareholder is not an employee for purposes of §106. Treas. Reg. §1.106-1; section 1372(a). Accordingly, the premiums are not excludible from the 2-percent shareholder-employee’s gross income under §106. It also states In order for the 2-pecent [sic] shareholder-employee to deduct the amount of the accident and health insurance premiums, the S corporation must report the accident and health insurance premiums paid or reimbursed as wages on the 2-percent shareholder-employee’s Form W-2 I think the 60-40% percent issue is moot in light of the above. This statement seems to indicate that 100% of the premiums are income to the 2% shareholder, included in wages subject to withholding, no matter who pays what. |
11 May 2011 | |
The more I think about it I'm not 100% sure that the 40% can be excluded from Soc Sec & Medicare wage, because the 2% SH can't participate in the §125 plan and, thus, his reason for excluding 40% portion from Soc Sec & Medicare would be that the premium were 100% employer paid. Well, then there's discrimination since the employer only pays 60% for others. However, as JR1 mentions above, if the plan is a grandfathered plan, then discrimination is OK and I'd be fine with having the 2% SH premium as 100% employer paid and excluded from Soc Sec & Medicare wages. However, if it is not a grandfather plan, and, thus, discrimination not allowed, I'm uncertain whether the 40% can be excluded from Soc Sec & Medicare wages. Anyone else know for sure on this? |
11 May 2011 | |
I would like to see a cite before I joined JR1 in his statement. And what is the grandfather date?
How about the statement in Notice 2008-1 that allows the "S" shareholder to pay the premiums personally, and then be reimbursed by "S" to shareholder. This reimbursement presumably creates a pre-tax situation for this shareholder........kinda like what a 125 plan does. You pay the expense, then get reimbursed from the plan with pre-tax dollars. |
12 May 2011 | |
I think I'm on board with a couple points for my particular 60/40 case:
1. 100% of the premiums are reported as income to the SH. 2. The S Corp "makes" 100% of the premium payments (on behalf of the SH) to the insurance company. These key points should allow for a 100% SEHI deduction of premiums for the SH (assuming no other rules are broken, like other insurance eligibility, etc.). Next question... What can the S Corp claim as an expense? Currently they only claim the 60% in order to be in-line with regular employees. However, if we assume that the 60/40 makes no difference to the SH based on the 2 points above, then couldn't you also assume they make no difference to the S Corp? 100% is a guaranteed payment (fringe) to the SH, therefore an expense to the S Corp? Since this S Corp already deducts FICA for the 2% SH (satisfying the requirement of class separation), then it seems like this would be a no brainer. |
12 May 2011 | |
Doug M. See Notice 2011-1 for information regarding the nondiscrimination requirements. Also see §54.9815-1251T for information regarding grandfathered plans. Looks like the grandfather date is 3/23/10. Also, in the reimbursement scenario you mentioned, the S-Corp is still required to include the reimbursement wages to the SH and at least include in Box 1 of the SH's Form W-2. Thus, the reimbursement ends up as wages expense for the S-Corp.
TaxLes: The entire amount of the 2% SH's insurance is wage expense to the Corp. Likewise, it is wage income to the SH and then above the line deduction for the SH. Given this, the actual expense ends up being the wage expense on the S-Corp return. The wage income and SEHI deduction is just an in-and-out on the SH's return. |
Spell Czech (talk|edits) said: | 12 May 2011 |
I'm thinking that the 40% isn't a "fringe benefit". That amount of money is being considered paid to the guy as salary and included in his W-2, and then is being considered withheld from his salary as payment for his 40% share of the premium. It's *cash* to him, and then *cash* withheld from him. This isn't what I think of as a taxable fringe benefit; this is what I think of as taxable compensation and withholding. [Later, I think it ends up just the same as reimbursing the employee for what he has paid...]
On the other hand, the 60% *is* a fringe benefit, and it's artificially included in the W-2 as taxable compensation as Notice 2008-1 tells us to do. But the difference is that the shareholder gets to *keep* the value of the 60% - it's the value (the cost?) of the health insurance coverage provided by and paid for by the corporation: there's no withholding for the 60%. It seems to me that the 40% that's "paid to" the shareholder as compensation is *certainly* deductible by the corporation as compensation. It's not an insurance premium, not yet, not until it's been withheld by the corporation and then paid out - by the corporation - as part of the 100% of the premium that the corporation pays to the insurance company. The 40% withholding isn't an insurance premium, and it's not the value of an insurance coverage. It's an amount *equal to* 40% of the cost of the guys insurance. It's maybe easier to see if the salary weren't withheld from, and the shareholder/employee wrote a check to the corporation for 40% of the premium. See how the 40% withholding isn't really a premium, it's just cash going in a circle...? I think Notice 2008-1 doesn't address this. |
12 May 2011 | |
Spell Czech, are you implying then that the 40% is considered a personal payment of the insurance premiums and, therefore, does not qualify for the SEHI deduction? If this is the case, couldn't the corp just say it pays 100% of premium for the SH? Then the entire amount would be a fringe benefit and would be included in the SH wages. Further the 40% would be considered discriminatory and be included in Soc Sec and Medicare wages. With this, you arrive right back at the same place as before (from the Corp's point of view, with the 40% included in wages) but now the SH gets to deduct the 40% as SEHI deduction. Regardless of how you view the 40%, it seems like it should qualify for the SEHI deduction but be subject to payroll taxes. Maybe I missing something? |
Spell Czech (talk|edits) said: | 12 May 2011 |
Frankly, I'm not sure about what I'm not saying here. It seems to me that the withholding is sorta confusing things, since it's [mechanically, at least] just some cash moving in a circle.
What's the result for the SEHI deduction if the shareholder *doesn't* have the 40% withheld after tax, but writes a personal check to his employer for the 40% instead of the withholding? That, I believe, is where we are. Where that gets us to, I don't know. |
Spell Czech (talk|edits) said: | 12 May 2011 |
With just a little bit of a stretch, we could say that the withheld money (or the employee's check, whichever) is the employee's payment of his part of a health insurance policy premium and that the inclusion of a like amount in his W-2 income is the employer-corporation's taxable reimbursement of the employee's payment of the premium (either by withholding or by check), and - with this slight fiction - we're now *covered* by the "employee policy and payment - employer reimbursement to employee" part of Notice 2008-1.
Leaves the FICA and Medicare up in the air (which you seem less concerned with, right?) but I think it moves the 40% deduction to the shareholder's Form 1040 Page 1 Line 29 where you probably already had it even before this scintillating analysis... |
12 May 2011 | |
Isn't that the way all fringes for S-Corp SH's are treated? In the case of a fringe benefit, the corp pays the amounts directly to the vendor, but, in reality, the corp pays the amount to the SH in the form of wages, the SH then turns around and writes a check back to the Corp and then the Corp remits that amount to the vendor. If you look at it like this then all fringes; regardless of whether they are labled "employer contributions", "employee after-tax contributions" or "employee pre-tax contributions"; are treated as paid by the SH personally. If this is how you have to look at the payment of the health insurance premiums, in respect to notice 2008-1, then an S-Corp SH would never get the SEHI deduction becuase the policy would never be considered as established by the Corp. Thus, as for meeting the requirements of the notice, I think you have to read the phase "the S corporation makes the premium payments for the accident and health insurance policy" as just that; it simply writes the check. In reality, it is always the SH who is really paying the premium. |
12 May 2011 | |
You guys are hitting on all the issues that prompted the initial post, which is great!
DAJCPA, your last post gets to the "meat" of my original question of interpretation... who "makes" the payment. It is all SH money, but the S corp writes the check. It would certainly make things more clear if the S Corp reduced the salary by the amount equal to the 40% and simply PAID 100% of the premiums and included them in Box 1, 3, 5, and 14. FICA would apply at that point, but as stated that is of lower concern for my client. Unfortuntately, that is not how they reported it, so I have 3 tax years to clean up in which the 40% portion is NOT included as an SEHI deduction. It was easily missed because Box 14 only included the 60%. The client actually recongized the fact that Box 14 only included the 60% and asked the question, "Why can't I get a deduction for the 40% I pay?" |
12 May 2011 | |
TaxLes, exactly! The 40% is wages anyway, so reduce their stated wages by the 40% of the health ins premium and then add the 40% back as an employer paid benefit. The SH is right back to their former stated wage. Its all a matter of what you call the 40%: is it just regular old wages with an after-tax deduction or is it a taxable benefit, which also has to come out as after-tax deduction? The numbers are the same either way, but, calling it the latter ensures the SEHI deduction. |
12 May 2011 | |
"calling it the latter ensures the SEHI deduction"
But can I only call it the latter (a taxable benefit) if it is removed from the paystub completely? What makes it regular old wages? Just the fact that it is shown on the paystub? It is clearly marked as a Health premium withholding after tax. It seems that it should automatically be a taxable benefit because of the 2% SH status. Whether it is shown on a paystub or added to the W-2 shouldn't matter in the end, should it? The bottom line is whether it is sufficient enough to "stretch" into a 100% SEHI deduction and withstand an audit... that is what I must decide. The more people that weigh in one way or the other certainly increases my confidence that it is within the realm of interpretation in my client's favor. :) Thanks again for all the comments... This has turned out to be much more interesting that expected! |
12 May 2011 | |
In my opinion I think that treating a portion of the regular wages as really being the taxable benefit is OK since the meat of the requirements of 2008-1 have been met. How its labled on the paystub is a fairly minor detail, and the end result is the same, thus and I don't think would cause an issue under audit. I doubt an IRS agent is going to, or will have the knowledge to, nit-pick on this small detail. Obviously, going forward you might recommend that the taxable fringe portion be labled as such and separated out from other wages on the paystub. Again this is a presentation change only; the substance of the transaction has always been and will remain the same-- that the shareholder had a taxable fringe benefit and not regular old wages. |
12 May 2011 | |
@DAJ--thanks for the reference. My reading of the notice tells me that IT IS NOT yet effective.
I still stand by the language of "paid or reimbursed" from Notice 2008-1. |
12 May 2011 | |
DAJCPA, I agree with your opinion, and that is how I plan to proceed. I also think I'll leave the FICA reporting alone since it (in a way) serves as a backup to this interpretation. Since I'm treating it as if the S Corp did pay 100% of the premiums (a taxable benefit to the SH), then this could be interpreted as discrimination, thereby supporting the FICA withholding from the SH.
Thanks again for the opinions and support. |
BerkshireCPA (talk|edits) said: | 13 May 2011 |
Excellent topic as I think I have couple of Shareholders in the same boat. There is another thread on this board dates June 18 that spells out that no >2% shareholder should be paying any portion of the health insurance premiums. And because of that, 100% of insurance premiums will be paid by corp and 100% will be reported on shareholders W-2 not subject to fica & medicare. And then you take the deduction on Form 1040
Discrimination rules will not apply to 2% shareholders. Take a look at the June 18, 2010 thread and it makes more sense. |
13 May 2011 | |
BerkshireCPA, I can't find the June 18 2010 discussion you to which you are referring. Can you provide a link?
I'm never sure, as I mentioned in one of my posts above, whether or not health insurance plans discriminating in favor of >2% SH's make the discriminatory portion fall outside the exclusion provided by §3121(a)(2)(B)and subject to Soc Sec & Medicare. I'm not sure how to read the phrase "if the requirements for the exclusion under §3121(a)(2)(B) are satisfied" in Announcement 92-16. Yes, the employer portion (60% in this case) is paid under the plan for sure as it is dictated by the plan, but is the 40% considered paid under the plan since the 40% is only paid for the >2% SH? This has always puzzled me. |
BerkshireCPA (talk|edits) said: | 13 May 2011 |
[[1]]
Hopefully this will work. |
13 May 2011 | |
The June 18, 2010 thread that BerkshireCPA references is more about discrimination questions related to medical plans but does have some minor references to the more than 2% shareholder of an S Corp and Notice 2008-1.
I agree with Harry in his earlier posts above - only the portion of medical insurance paid by the S Corp and added to the W-2 box 1 taxable wages (exempt from boxes 3 & 5 taxes) qualifies as an above the line deduction. Any portion of gross wages payroll deducted for the employee to pay a share of the insurance cost cannot be included in a 125 plan, does not reduce wages on the W-2 box 1, is fully taxable for boxes 3 & 5. This portion of insurance cost cannot be deducted above the line on page one of the 1040 for SEHI. It goes to Schedule A medical expenses. I like how Harry put that last part - he is "screwed" on that portion of the insurance cost. |
13 May 2011 | |
Thanks for the additional link, BerkshireCPA.
More good insight DAJCPA... The question I have is that if the 40% is NOT considered "paid under the plan," then does that exclude it from being deducted as SEHI, or does it simply make the >2% SH income subject to FICA? KathiJud, thanks for your insight as well. Sounds like you are confident in your interpretation. I think where I (and others) have been struggling is in the fact that Notice 2008-1 states the following: "...premiums paid or furnished by an S corporation on behalf of its 2-percent shareholders...." The phrase "paid or furnished by...on behalf of..." has been interpreted as the S Corp writing the check to the insurance company. In my clients case, 100% of the premiums are Box 1 wages and 100% of the payments were MADE (checks written) by the S Corp. While 40% was shown as paystub wages reduced to pay a portion of the premiums, it doesn't seem to break the rules required for the plan to be established by the S Corp. Would love to get consensus on this one before proceeding. :) |
14 May 2011 | |
It's been a long week and I am tired. Let me cut to the chase. You are playing word games when you view money withheld from an agreed amount of gross pay to pay insurance premiums as then being premiums "paid or furnished". BS. The corp is simply forwarding the shareholder's payment, not paying it for them as the expense of the corp. Notice 2008-1 requires that any amount you want to be treated as eligible for the above the line deduction be paid as the expense of the corp for the shareholder's benefit with no reimbursement from agreed gross wages. Your check stubs and/or payroll records tell the story so no fudging allowed. To fix this, change how the wages are reported from this point forward. |
14 May 2011 | |
Kathi--then why can the "S" reimburse the shareholder for premiums paid and deduct above the line? |
Spell Czech (talk|edits) said: | 14 May 2011 |
"...and (who?) deduct (what?) above (which?) line?"
Because that [reimbursing a shareholder/employee for premiums paid by the employee/shareholder] has been found by Notice 2008-1 to show the existence of a "plan" of the corporation/employer and to establish the payment for the insurance under that plan. Which satisfies the requirements of IRC Section 162(l). I think that was the entire point of the IRS Notice. |
14 May 2011 | |
You are playing word games when you view money withheld from an agreed amount of gross pay to pay insurance premiums as then being premiums "paid or furnished".
This isn't "word games," this is reality. If I'm due a $10k gross paycheck in December and my employer takes all of it away from me (net pay of $0) because they have 'already paid me the $10k in the form of $10k worth of health insurance the employer paid throughout the year,' then I am being taxed on the value of the health insurance. I am walking away with net cash pay of $0 for December. If I'm hearing KathiJud correctly, she's saying that the $10k Fringe Benefit is not included in my income as a fringe benefit, but rather, it's included as just regular wages (a/k/a an "agreed amount of gross pay") that I'm being taxed on. To this I say hogwash. I clearly have been taxed on the $10k, and I clearly went home with $0 net pay in December. This means I was not taxed on any cash I received, but on some intangible that has a quantifiable value. 2008-1 requires that any amount you want to be treated as eligible for the above the line deduction be paid as the expense of the corp for the shareholder's benefit with no reimbursement from agreed gross wages. No it doesn't. 2008-1 is merely making it clear that the premium payment must be run through the corp in some way, shape or form, including reimbursement. In other words, if you're an S-corp shareholder and pay a personal premium, you can't take it as an S/E Health deduction on your 1040. |
Spell Czech (talk|edits) said: | 14 May 2011 |
"In other words, if you're an S-corp shareholder and pay a personal premium, you can't take it as an S/E Health deduction on your 1040." Unless, of course, you and the corporation go through the *fiction* ("some way, shape or form") created by Notice 2008-1 to satisfy the "plan" and its requirement and other things - payroll reporting - required to satisfy (as described in the cookbook recipe published in Notice 2008-1) the various requirements of IRC Section 162(l), right?
But I think that's exactly what you're saying... |
14 May 2011 | |
Clearly this isn't my area of expertise, but I have to ask a couple more questions... If what KathiJud, Spell Czech, and Harry Boscoe are saying is true (and I'm not saying it isn't) - that the way my client's S Corp chose to "report" premiums paid/deducted prevents an SEHI deduction for the 40% shown as deducted wages on a paystub - then what is the purpose of reporting it this way? Obviously it is a disadvantage to the >2% SH, but is there any advantage to the S Corp? I suspect they have been advised (and possibly misguided) to do so to avoid discrimination by paying more premiums for >2% SH, but the reality is they don't pay any of the premiums. They are all Box 1 income to the SH and paid by the S Corp on behalf of the SH to the insurance company. So why does a difference in reporting (that provides no benefit to the S Corp or SH) disallow what would otherwise be a deduction for the SH? The plan is the same, the reported wages are the same, shouldn't the tax burden be the same?
Okay, I know what "should be" doesn't really amount to anything, so let me get back to something concrete. §535(6) explains the qualifications for "the plan" to be established under the S Corp. There are only 2 scenarios that qualify: premiums paid by the S Corp and reported as W-2 wages, or premiums reimbursed by the S Corp and reported as W-2 wages (or presumably a combination of the two). If you don't believe the 40% shown as a paystub wage deduction is "paid" or reimbursed by the S Corp, or that it hasn't been reported as wages, then how can you believe the plan is established under the S Corp given these 2 simple rules? And if the plan isn't established under the S Corp, then how can any of the premiums (even the 60% portion that you believe IS "paid" by the S Corp) be deducted as SEHI? Since no one here has suggested that the 60% isn't deductible, then this line of logic breaks down (or we are all wrong, and no deduction is allowed). Since I don't think that is true, I am compelled to believe that 100% of the premiums are PAID by the S Corp as defined in §535(6). As stated in Notice 2008-1, premiums paid or furnished by the S Corp on behalf of the SH are considered guaranteed payments (i.e. not wages) even though the paystub would suggest otherwise. This implies that 100% of the premiums are reported as income on SH W-2 Box 1. And with all conditions seemingly met, 100% of the premiums are allowable as an SEHI deduction, as they "should be" (darn, I did it again). Feel free to pick this apart as you will. I'm not trying to play word games, just trying to understand the laws and apply them correctly. |
Spell Czech (talk|edits) said: | 14 May 2011 |
Me too! "... just trying to understand the laws and apply them correctly and favorably. "
Make as if we don't use the "after tax" withholding but use the shareholder's check, instead, to pay his 40% of the premium (by paying the employer, who then pays 100% of the premium...) and the whole thing works... But this is just *illustration* - the same result *should be* available *using* the after-tax withholding, as in the OP's scenario. The W-2 should show 100% of the premium as an SEHI payment, eligible for deduction by the shareholder/employee on his page 1, albeit subject to the "earned income from the business" limitation. [Added: I think I may have changed my position on this, but I'm not going to go back now and check. There's things to do involving grill, heat, meat, and sauce.] |
RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said: | 14 May 2011 |
Please note that SEHI taxed as wages is not subject to FICA; there should be a difference between the wage box and the FICA boxes on the W-2. Someone I think commented on this.
Is there a requirement for a written plan covering the medical insurance of the shareholder? I don't see a written plan requirement, therefore if the S Corporation somehow includes the amount of SEHI in the W-2 that would indicate there is some type of a plan, i.e., oral. The Section 125 plan administrator may have a problem in how the shareholder is included the Section 125 plan. Heck, I know nothing about SEHI I am just wool-gathering again. |
14 May 2011 | |
More than 2% shareholders in S Corps are still not able to be part of a 125 plan.
Notice 2008-1 had a purpose which was to clarify the S Corp had to pay for premiums in order to get the above the line deductions. They wanted to do away with the shareholder payment from their own funds for premiums and getting the deduction. Personal payments are to be documented and reimbursed by the corporation to get the favorable tax treatment. When you keep this purpose in mind, how can you overlook the deduction from the shareholder's wages for premium costs which is in fact personal after tax payment of premiums? Again I say, to fix this, fix the wage and check stub reporting to show this the correct way. Company pays 100% of premiums, adds to Box 1 of the W-2 wages, is subject to income tax withholding, exempt from social security and medicare taxes. Shareholder gets the above the line deduction. Premiums flow to shareholder's return in three places: Line 7 wages SEHI deduction above the line of an equal amount to line 7 wage amount Deduction for premiums treated as wages also included in S Corp pass through on K-1 for this owners % |
15 May 2011 | |
More than 2% shareholders in S Corps are still not able to be part of a 125 plan.
It was done on an after-tax basis in this case. Notice 2008-1 had a purpose which was to clarify the S Corp had to pay for premiums One purpose of the notice was to clarify that the corp had to "make" the premium payments. |
15 May 2011 | |
"They wanted to do away with the shareholder payment from their own funds for premiums and getting the deduction. Personal payments are to be documented and reimbursed by the corporation to get the favorable tax treatment."
Kathi, if this was the key purpose of Notice 2008-1, then why didn't they give an example of an S Corp paying the premiums through a wage deduction and clearly state that it doesn't qualify for the deduction? It seems to me Notice 2008-1 addresses the case of 100% of premium payments made by the SH (outside of any wage deduction), and that it is these payments that must be documented and reimbursed in order for the plan to be considered established under the S Corp. In my client's case, there's no documentation of payment to provide and reimburse since it's all handled through the S Corp. Kathi/Chris, both of you seem to have experience handling this issue (in opposite ways), but has either of you dealt with the IRS directly (or found any other supporting documentation) regarding your interpretations of Notice 2008-1? |
15 May 2011 | |
Notice 2008-1 just clarifies a few things...like these:
1) S-shareholder cannot pay the insurance out of his own pocket and take an S/E Health deduction on his 1040 [IRS says this won't work because the premiums have not been run through the corp and as such, the corporation has not directly provided this fringe benefit to the shareholder under the corporation's health insurance program. And since the S-corp has not directly provided this fringe to the shareholder, said fringe was not directly included in the shareholder's income and was certainly not reflected on his W-2. Now, the shareholder would argue that it has been inlcuded in his income since this was truly a corporate obligation that the corporation never deducted, thereby increasing the Ordinary Income passed thru to the shareholder, or reducing the ordinary loss passed through to the shareholder. Under the new guidance, this shareholder argument falls flat]. 2) S-corp cannot separately state the deduction on the shareholder's K-1, which the shareholder then claims directly on his 1040 as S/E health [taxpayers used to argue that this would work because the deduction, since not offset at the corporate level against Ordinary Income, means that the shareholder has included it in his income (by virtue of reporting higher ordinary income, or less of an ordinary loss). Again, under new guidance, this argument falls flat]. 3) S-corp cannot deduct corporate-paid health insurance as an "ordinary (fringe benefit) deduction" on the 1120S, with the shareholder then reporting the amount on Line 21, Form 1040, as "other income" and then with the shareholder taking the S/E health deduction on the face of his 1040. Under new guidance, this taxpayer argument likewise falls flat since the health insurance was not directly included in the shareholder's income, as reported by the S-corp (i.e. on shareholder's W-2). 4) S-corp cannot treat the corporate-paid health insurance as a Shareholder Distribution, with the Shareholder then taking the S/E health deduction on his 1040. [Again, for the reasons cited above, this won't work any longer. But note that RR 91-26 disallows this treatment anyway, although the rationale in RR 91-26 is a bit flawed]. I won't go so far as to say that these are the types of arguments that the IRS is attempting to "combat" with Notice 2008-1. The IRS isn't really isn't opining on the logical or illogical nature of these taxpayer arguments. Rather, the IRS is raising its arms and saying, "Enough is enough. There's too many aruments here, be they logical or not. So let's try to come up with a single method of tackling this issue." This is the overall intent of Notice 2008-1. Given this intent, this is probably why we don't have any examples in the Notice that involve after-tax deductions on the part of the shareholder. But under general tax principles, if an employee is hit with an after-tax deduction for something, this is prima facie evidence that the value of the underlying fringe benefit was indeed included on the Shareholder's W-2. |
Spell Czech (talk|edits) said: | 15 May 2011 |
I thought I read somewhere that the purpose of Notice 2008-1 was to establish that a *plan* of health insurance coverage wasn't the health insurance *policy*, and that a reimbursement to a >2% shareholder/employee could be as part of a *plan* of the employer to provide health insurance. The rest of the Notice explains the *consequences* of allowing a reimbursement to be part of a *plan*.
Also, I think I heard that this Notice was actually drafted by one of the Big CPA firms - as sort of a pro bono project - and submitted by the CPA firm to Treasury/IRS who studied it and (maybe) made changes, and then published it as their own, early in 2008, but retroactively effectively to .. whenever. Does anybody else also remember this back story of the Notice? |
15 May 2011 | |
Thanks for the grammar cleanup, Schmeddy!
Chris, thanks for the details. I think you have a better case for the wage deduction that I do. In your scenario, 100% of the payments are deducted at the end of the year and it seems to support that the S Corp IS providing this as a SH fringe benefit, and that they just choose to report it this way (so that is shows up on the paystub and not JUST the W-2). In my scenario, the S Corp is trying to say that they pay 60% and the SH pays 40% (just like regular employees), only without any pre-tax benefit since the >2% SH can't participate in the 125 plan. So back to my question a couple posts ago, is there ANY benefit to the S Corp (or anyone else, besides the IRS) in reporting it this way? If the "fix" is to change the reporting for the >2% SH to reduce the wages and remove the wage deduction so that 100% of the premiums just show up on the W-2 (and not the paystub), then does ANYTHING change other than reporting? If the answer is no, then I still question why my client can't deduct the full amount of the premiums, even though the S Corp reported it this way. |
15 May 2011 | |
Yes and no. Not everything in this Notice is about "policy vs. arrangement" and "reimbursement vs. no reimbursement." Check out the 4 examples in the Notice, which have been summarized below.
Yes, the Notice clarified that the policy doesn't have to be in the name of the corp, and as such, a reimbursement to the shareholder (or a direct premium payment by the corp to the insurer) will work. But that was no big surprise to those of us who had already been running such premiums through the corp for numerous years prior to the issuance of Notice 2008-1. The common thread of all 4 examples is that (1) premiums must be run through corp in order to get an S/E Health deduction [through a direct premium payment by the corp or through a reimbursement to the shareholder] and (2) the value of the fringe needs to show up on shareholder's W2 (which the S/H is required to properly report on his 1040). This is the real jist of the notice. Prior to Notice 2008-1, we had RR 91-26, and its various provisions were interpreted in a wide variety of ways by taxpayers and practitioners. Notice 2008-1 merely clarified everything. For example, the idea that the fringe needed to be "included in the shareholder's income" was interpreted such that it could easily be done without showing it on the guy's W2. RR 91-26 also said the corp "may" deduct the amount as wages - some took the position that it could be deducted as a fringe, and therefore, no W2 reporting was required. And still others completely bypassed RR 91-26 and argued that they could take the deduction personally if they paid the premiums personally and did not run them through the corp. And there were even more arguments and ideas than this. Ex 1: Policy in S/H's name; shareholder personally makes premium payments; no reimbursements from corp; No deduction allowed. Ex 2: Policy is in corp's name; corp makes premium payments; Yes deduction allowed. Ex 3: Policy is in S/H's name; corp makes premium payments direct to insurer; Yes deduction allowed. Ex 4: Policy is in S/H's name; S/H makes premium payments and is reimbursed by corp; Yes decuction allowed. |
15 May 2011 | |
Chris, thanks for the history lesson. I haven't had any experience with RR 91-26, but I do understand the purpose of Notice 2008-1 was to clarify what you posted above.
I think what I'm looking for is this... if the S Corp changes reporting for the future to show 100% of the payments in the same place (something they would ONLY do for the >2% ), what is the impact to the S Corp? Furthermore, if this change in reporting results in no loss of benefit for the S Corp, then it would seem the past returns could be amended (pursuant to Notice 2008-1 Example 3) to include 100% of the premium as an SEHI deduction in spite of the 60/40 reporting. |
BerkshireCPA (talk|edits) said: | 16 May 2011 |
TaxLes, I think you are looking for a reason why all S Corps would not just make it policy for 100% of all > 2% shareholder premiums to be paid by corp and include it on the W2 and allow for the entire write off on their 1040's.
What if you had a law firm with 8 shareholders (all more than 2%)? If the firm had a policy that 100% of health insurance would be covered for all employees and shareholders, most employees would sign up for this. So they require 40% to be paid by employees hoping that some will opt for their insurance through a spouse (and hopefully let a big company subsidize most of the cost). Ideally the firm's bottom line would be helped if the shareholders could also get insurance through a spouse. But if 100% is paid by the law firm for shareholders, some shareholders will opt for that. So maybe the firm says we will keep the 60-40 split just to encourage the shareholders to look elsewhere. At close to $20k per year for a family plan, we could be talking some decent money. |
16 May 2011 | |
BerkshireCPA,
Thanks for the response. That is an interesting point. However, I was more curious about whether there was any reason they would show 60/40 for >2% SH from a *taxable* standpoint, particularly since they would have regular employees that they want to keep at 60/40. I'm suggesting no change in total compensation for the >2% SH electing to take the insurance, just a change in the way it is reported. Of course, this would effectively reduce the salary of the >2% SH, and if a >2% SH were to decline the insurance, then the S Corp would have to choose whether to increase their salary by 40%. What I'm really trying to do is justify that if all the S Corp has to do is change the way they report premiums paid for >2% SH and there is no loss of tax benefit to the S Corp, then I can claim that prior years that show 60/40 for >2%SH were reported as such out of ignorance and not intent. This gives some level of backup for filing amended returns to deduct 100% of the premiums for previous tax years. If, on the other hand, by changing the reporting (to show 100% of the premiums ONLY on the W-2) somehow changes how the S Corp can deduct, or if FICA comes into play because of discrimination, then this would prevent any justification for amending my client's past returns to take the full deduction. Hopefully that made sense.... |
BerkshireCPA (talk|edits) said: | 16 May 2011 |
It only seems fair that the shareholder/employee can deduct 100% but what if the scenario was this. Shareholder gets premiums in their name and then the S Corp agrees to reimburse only 60% (for whatever reason)of the total cost. They then include that 60% on Shareholders W-2. In that case would you still think that the shareholder could include the unreimbursed 40% on the 1040 as a deduction?
I guess this is what Kathi is saying, by having the shareholder withhold 40% from their pay it is in essence saying the S Corp is only willing to pay 60%. I think the only way I would amend is if you went back and filed corrected W2's and I do not know how you could justify that if the 40% was actually withheld from their pay. |
16 May 2011 | |
Taxles. The tax benefit to the S-Corp does not change. They show wage expense for the 40% no matter what. Based on what Kathijud suggests, the S-Corp should have labeled the 40% as an employee benefit on the paystub, separate from regular wages and excluded the amount from Soc Sec & Medicare and shown the 40% in Box 14. If you are going to change things on the 2% SH's side of things, the only error on the S-Corp side, in the way of tax then, is that they overpaid Soc Sec & Medicare taxes. The 40% under this scenario still remains in Box 1 wages and is deducted by the S-Corp as wages expense. Note that some companies match their wage expense to Medicare wages and thus report the 2% SH insurance expense as employee benefit expense rather than reporting as wage expense. Either way, the S-Corp is deducting the amount. So how you show it on the 2% SH's tax return has no impact on the S-Corp--other than it may have overpaid Soc Sec & Medicare taxes. Again based on my question above, I'm not sure the 40%, being a discriminatory amount, is exempt from Soc Sec & Medicare taxes. However, once you move if back to being subject to SS & Medicare taxes you are again saying that the amount is after-tax (for all taxes), thus, regular wages and, thus, not allowed for SEHI deduction!! Based on this then, the only thing different is how it shows on the paystub, period--it is no different from regular wages for all reporting purposes except for the paystub.
Based on all the opinions above, it’s obviously a judgment call. I would discuss the issues with the client and let them know the issues and let them make the call knowing that he 40% could be denied as above the line. KathiJud: if the Taxles's client tells the S-Corp to change the paystubs to show the 40% as taxable benefit and stop paying Soc Sec & Medicare on the 40% I assume that this would fix the issue? HOwever if I am the S-Corp I'm again going to ask the question: is the 40%, since it is discrimanatory (offered for SH's but not other employees), subject to SS & Medicare becuase I'm not sure if the requirements for the exclusion under §3121(a)(2)(B) are satisfied. Does anyone know for sure if the §3121(a)(2)(B) requirements are satified for the discrimanatory portion? If not, your right back in the same boat-- the fringe benefit is after-tax (for all taxes) and, therefore, the same as regular wages and, thus, not allowed for SEHI deduction. |
16 May 2011 | |
"In that case would you still think that the shareholder could include the unreimbursed 40% on the 1040 as a deduction?"
Definitely not, since the plan would not be established under the business as described in Notice 2008-1. It must be PAID BY or REIMBURSED BY the S Corp. As Ckenefick explains, the PAID BY has been accepted (by many) to mean CHECKS WRITTEN BY and never states that this can't be through a wage reduction. In the scenario I'm suggesting, there would be no change to the W-2 Box 1, so it wouldn't need to be corrected. Going forward, the S Corp would reduce wages by an amount equal to the 40% and then include that in the S Corp portion of the premium. The W-2 stays the same (except perhaps the amount shown in Box 14, which is optional), but the paystub changes so that it doesn't show up as wages first. Your point about the reimbursement did make me think about something else. What if the S Corp pays the 60% (or 100%) IF (and only if) the SH participates in the group plan? Would the failure of the S Corp to reimburse a SH (who gets his own plan in his name) by the same amount that the S Corp "pays" for other SH in the group plan be a violation of the guidelines described in Notice 2008-1? It is my understanding that my client's S Corp doesn't pay or reimburse ANYTHING unless the SH (or even a regular employee) participates in the group plan. |
16 May 2011 | |
DAJCPA, you've exposed another issue with my client's scenario. For whatever reason, his S Corp has included 100% of the premiums in Boxes 3 and 5 (well, only Box 5 in my client's case because Box 3 is maxed out), even the 60% which they include in Box 14. Does this mean that the 60% paid by the S Corp (never shown on a paystub) shouldn't be allowed as an SEHI deduction, and that was actually considered regular wages?
Not speaking directly for Kathi, but her posts in the link provided by BerkshireCPA earlier in this discussion state that the S Corp paying for 100% of the >2% SH premiums does NOT constitute discrimination. Discrimination would come into play if the S Corp wanted to pay different amounts for regular employees based on other factors (compensation, job role, years of service, etc.). |
16 May 2011 | |
Seems to me the discussion in the link BerkshireCPA provided in more of a discussion of the new discrimination rules under the new "health care act" that subjects non-grandfathered plans to the nondiscrimination rules of §105(h) which could subject discriminatory plans to federal income tax. These new rules don't have anything to do with the 2% SH insurance premiums since these premiums are already subject to income tax. I'm concerned about the §3121 rules and Soc Sec & Medicare taxes, not income taxes, and thus that particular discussion does not directly apply to my question (although, per that discussion it does look like discrimination in favor of the 2% SH under the new health care act could create additional penalties on top of the 2% SH's premiums being subject to federal income tax). A link inside that discussion [2] does discuss SS & Medicare issue. This discussion does say that you may be able to separate the 2% SH into a separate "class" of employee, a class that only they fall into for some reason other than the fact that they are an owner (i.e. the reason for the separate "class" must be based on responsibilities, etc and not stock ownership) and then the additional benefit would not be considered discriminatory since it applies to a certain "class" of employee. Per that same discussion, if the additional benefit does not fall within this exception for certain "classes" of employees, then, it is considered discriminatory and not paid under a "plan" and, therefore, NOT exempt from SS & Medicare. Don't know if this addtional discussion on the §3121 issues helps or just adds to the heap of uncertainty contained herein. |