Discussion Archives:RTRP vs EA

IF there already existed an IRS Exam to become an EA, What was the need for a new IRS Exam to become an RTRP?

And what is the difference between an EA and the new RTRP?

My dumb questtion (are RTRP's allowed to represent taxpayers before IRS)

Again, just not sure why someone wanting to become a Tax Professional just doesn't take the EA Exam?

I asked WHY?

Since I am a CPA the question was not important then.

It is now with at least One RTRP @ Tax Almanac.

Can you direct me to the discussion that answers my question

I did us the Yellow box, no help for my question

Are you always this sarcastic?

You had two sentences, one the facts (as you see them) that did not answer my question, Why the NEED for RTRP at ALL?

The a second, totally unnecessary slap. What was it needed far. You had stated your view, not answering my question.

Why the need for the second sentence? Perhaps you have a different word than sacrasim.

See my related question in Bus Growth as to, again, What is the need for RTRP

Oh, and with Atty, CPA, EA and now RTRP what is a PTP?

Tax Professionals are people, Atty, CPA, EA (alpha order only) who have Proven their tax competency "In-the-Market-Place"

If you read my question in Bus Growth, perhaps you will see I am not behind, but merely wondering how confused "TaxPayers" must be?

I mean no argument, I was merely asking What RTRP is needed for.

That is like in 1978 when the accounting Profession {Ivory Tower} "Created" Compliation & Review Reports!!

Prior to that there was, AND STILL IS, ONLY "Audited "&" UNAudited" These Comp & Review are STILL UNaudited!

Now EA "and" RTRP????, Why are they not just taking the EA Exam?

Is this new RTRP "Exam" up to the same standards as the EA Exam?

I guess, perhaps another question for an EA.

This Tax Professional designation,EA.

What are the people "Enrolled" In and Who are they "Agents" Of?

I understand what Atty and CPA describe, Law and Accounting

but the "term" EA has always confused me, some of my clients think they "ARE" IRS "Agents!"

NOT the Tax Professionalism merely how they are designated.

Please, this is not an argument, nor sarcasim. Just honest questions asked in a Professions forum.

You still have not answered any of my question, merely doing your on rude rant, why.

You did not bother to answers any of THEM (plural).

If you can not have the courtesy to answer my question then please do not reply to my posts.

Gee, EA's around since 1890.

So what does that have to do with my question(S)above?

Accountants have been around since the first start of commerce, before Governments started taking what is not theirs.

Still that does not answers any of the questions.

WHY, the need for a SECOND IRS Exam?

Is that Exam at the same standard as the EA Exam?

EA's, "Enrolled" in What?

EA's "Agents" of Whom?

HOW is creating RTRP going to bring any ETHICS into this prosession?

More, nonsense "government mandated CPE" for lecturers to make money talking while people sit there physically but not mentally.

Just how much Continuing Professional Education do you do each year, REGARDLESS of "Government Mandated-Control"?

I personally have always had hundreds of hours per year on my own.

The Free-Market Sysyem AND being a Professional CPA require it of me,

NOT BECAUSE OF SOME GOVERNMENT "CITIZEN" CONTROL!

This appears to be merely a discussion between you and I.

Therefore, I have Asked my legitimate Timely questions, and will reply professionally to you if you can to me.

Two years ago RTRP was a concept, now it is a reality.

There is only one here @ the Almanac.

Did you bother to get a PTIN?,

dah, Yes. When they were first available, in the last Century.

I had simply asked a question here and in Tax.

I did not think in this Professional site I would be treted to you.

I am not trying to argue, merely ASKING questions that have NO answer in the Yellow box.

Discussion:IRS Says No Registered Preparer Designation Without Competency Test

Good luck.

The PTIN is the portal in which one enters the realm of preparing tax returns. To start you must have a PTIN. To get a PTIN you must take an exam unless you are a CPA, Attorney, or EA. If you are not one of those then you must take a test and upon passing you will be granted a PTIN. That should be it. No title to confuse everyone else. But, now that there is an RTRP it is very likely that there will be significant abuse in the practice of those individuals, namely in flaunting the registration title.

It is not too late for the IRS to drop the title. Just tell the folks who passed the exam that they now have a PTIN and can file tax returns. If they want to flaunt the PTIN then more power to them.

I think Kevin's last post, which I agree with, sums things up pretty concisely:

The IRS disagreed and said that the average preparer didn't need to as much about individual taxation as an EA. They may also have been worried that not enough people could pass Part 1 of the SEE and this would be seen as anti small-business.

And, I will add that the big thing the IRS is doing here is requiring preparers to register with the IRS, including those that are completely incompetent and still manage to pass the test. As such, assuming they pass the test, these people are no longer ghosts - they have been identified and their work can be tracked and examined.

Every day I'm amazed as to the number of crappy drivers on the road...yet assuming they have a driver's license, they must have passed the test at some point.

All I did was ask a question

Why should "anyone" be able to remove anything they have PRINTED here?

If they can't pass the Exam they should not be in the industry.

So to make the public "think" they (the IRS) is watching out for them they make a watered down exam, that anyone can pass?

You can't practice "any" profession UNLESS you pass that Profession's "Testing."

What is different in somtehing that directly effects every tax paying citizen?

What? Preparing tax returns, for a fee, for others is a profession open to ANYONE?

I had an employee of a client of mine come to me about his, just prepared 2011 Form 1040 - by an RTRP.

There was an amount in line 21, that he questioned an did not believe the person answer was correct.

It was his prior year tax refund.

NO, not the "one" that goes on line 10.

It was his prior year Federal F1040 refund.

The RTRP told him "refunds" are Taxable in the following year.

"'Thanks'" is Never required by a military veteran.

You mentioned EA's have been here since 1890, a quarter of a century "before" Income Tax, That was visionary [Joke (lol)}

Marines have been here since 1775, DOING, NOT SAYING "Semper Fi", just because!

Without actually looking it up, I recall hearing that the EA designation was put into place to cut down on the number of crackpot cases brought against the Treasury Department for property damages incurred during the Civil War.

[And where is the spell-check when you need one?]

This is just in my NAE Alert:

I guess THE professional NEEDED to prepare tax returns? And the winner is, RTRP (more confusion for the taxPAYER)

No RTRP List on the IRS website – For Now -- A number of individuals who have passed the RTRP exam have asked when the IRS will have a list available on the IRS website. The answer seems to be: not in the near future.

The IRS rules are that anyone who must take the examination has until the end of 2013 to do so.

The concern is that it would be unfair to those who have not yet taken the exam to publicize those who took it early.

So, to those who passed the exam, please publicize your accomplishment to clients, on your letterhead and business cards, and in any advertising you do (subject to the IRS advertising rules). Just don’t expect any immediate advertising help from the IRS website.

Maybe I'll change my cards to get more clients ...

Don Priebe BSEE, MSEE, MBA, PE, EA, and currently not incarcerated.

Also, what about question and answer check for correctness? Again, back in the old days, when the IRS published the questions and their answers, about 5-10% of the questions either had multi-answers or the IRS answer was incorrect.

Yes, Mufid, he wants to publish a list on the IRS' website of ALL qualified preparers (CPAs, EAs, and RTRPs, as well as any attorney who wants to be listed). So this is coming in a few years (probably after the 12/31/2013 RTRP exam deadline (Being in Vegas, and given the numbers that he shared, some 300,000 people with PTINS who have yet to take the RTRP exam, I'll bet the deadline gets pushed back another year to 12/31/14 - but that won't be announced until 12/13 so that everyone scrambles to fill those Prometric seats at the last minute).

He also wants the IRS website to do a better job explaining the difference between an RTRP (with limited competence testing and limited practice rights) and CPAs and EAs with more extensive competence testing and unlimited practice rights before the administrative levels of the IRS.

He wants to go after 'ghost preparers' who still have not gotten a PTIN and are violating the law.

As of today, there are only some 3,200 people who have passed the RTRP exam and also passed the suitability/background check.

My post simply dealt with quote, "A number of individuals who have passed the RTRP exam have asked when the IRS will have a list available on the IRS website. The answer seems to be: not in the near future."

AND the IRS Response to "THEM" asking for the list, RTRP'ers :)

"The IRS rules are that anyone who must take the examination has until the end of 2013 to do so, the IRS's concern is that it would be unfair to those who have not yet taken the exam to publicize those who took it early."

That emplied it was to be a list of the "best & brightest" of PTP's :) or :(.

It really doesn't matter to me. IF they can't pass the EA exam they should not prepare tax returns for an unaware public.

Just my opinion.

So, Anyone should be able to provide fee for services; Law, Medicene, Insurance, Accounting, TAX?

In reading your bio I do not see any qualification to prepare fee for service tax returns (a serious Responsibility) to others.

The RTRP ?Exam? is a watered down joke.

We've had this debate before. Let's say you win the battle. Then Congress will pass a law saying you lose.

I don't remember where Lawyers, Physcians, Accountants Ever "ASKED" to be tested and regulated" by a Government.

Allegedly all this regulation was needed to protect the public from being harmed by incompetent practitioners. But really, who can judge who is competent and who is not? Why, those professional associations, of course.

So you have lawyers required to complete seven years of college education when an apprenticeship and a good high school diploma would serve as well or better. And why on EARTH do CPAs need 150 semester hours of college when accounting itself can be taught in two? And why does my state feel the need to license interior designers at all?

It's all about monopolies and protecting one's turf.

The nice thing about the EA license is that it DOESN'T create a monopoly. Just pass the test and be an honest person. What amazes me is how few people take the Government up on its offer.

I beleive we feel the same, the Free Market Place weeds out incompetent, WithOut "Government" control

I do not believe that you believe an apprentice with H.S. Diploma would serve as well or Better than a Lawyer.

Nor Why do CPAs need 150 semester college hours (oh and "A" Degree) when accounting can be taught in two. The CPA is not some QBooks Certified ProAdvisor. Your 2008 User page states you plan on taking the CPA Exam, I hope you have (and passed with "300") or if not I wish you well. I believe you will find it is not as simple as debits & credits or a Bank Reconcilation. Nor is being a lawyer as simple as a H.S. apprentice.

YES, my "concern" is {and always will be "To Protect the Public from ANY Harm}, that comes from being Once a Soldier, Always a Soldier!

However I do NOT need "Government" OR "Professional Associations" to DO-IT-FOR-ME!

You and I are also required {MANDATED} to has xxx hours a year in Continuing Professional Education by either the "government" or quasi-government "Prosessional Associations"

Actually in my mandated CPE "they" have decided within those "hours" they will TELL me exactly what 50% of those hours MUST be in! Just what do they think we do 24/7, 365/Yr DO? WE self-educate ourselves; Research, articles, online et al for hundreds of hours a year.

My simple questions is IF someone desires to be paid to prepare OTHERS tax returns (a serious Fiduciary Responsibility) let them either prove themselves, take existing EA Exam, or get paid doing something else! I am sure we both know they do not need to become a Lawyer or CPA to prepare Competent Income tax returns for others. In fact as I have stated here, The designation as a Lawyer or CPA does NOT say either of these are competent to prepare tax returns.

I believe, with the advent of "Do-it-for-You" Tax Software, "Garbage IN, Garbage OUT" that there does need to be some control over tax preparers before they harm others. The Market Place only works AFTER the harm has been done. BUT then there is the EA exam! To some extent perhaps Atty & CPAs who desire to prepare tax returns for others should also be required to take the EA Exam!

The only part of EA that make me uneasy to the words that go with EA, ENROLLED in What?, AGENT of Whom? I have many clients that believe the "A" is an Agent of the IRS! That is not for me :)

I am only going by what a person here placed in his User Page, but "taxshack's" posted bio, to me, is not qualifications to prepare others tax returns.

Where did I find his post? In a reply post calling the RTRP Exam "Unconstitutional."

Kevin, you just reminded me that I was going to contact you before the Vegas thing and look you up and I totally forgot. Oh well, next time. To add to what you said, David Williams also said that the new exam is much tougher than a lot of people expected and this was validated in one of the other classes where the speaker said a few EA's have taken the test because they thought since few people understand what an EA is it might help with marketing. Those EA's also reported that the test was much harder than they thought it would be.

Bob

You appear to be quite young and uninformed!

I am absolutely positive I am not a DUMB CPA, but then it really is None of Your Business.

I would like you to clarify you ASSUMPTION with factual information as to what you said, as opposed to your bucket of crap!

There are currently 22,000,000 living vetrans. Perhaps you were NOT in Combat nor with those who did live up to it.

Only question is DID you? and for how few years?

I too am confused with the "title" of EA, not the Tax expertise!

This person is Enrolled with Whom?

This person is an Agent of Whom?

Yes, perhaps changing your "title" to RTRP would be better form a Marketing Perspective!

At least you would no longer be Enrolled somewhere or an Agent of someone, but you still would be Registered Somewhere.

Over 30+ years I have had many Friend, Clients and Strangers aske ME, EA are they Agents of the IRS?

Being thought of as that IN the Market Place has to be damaging to obtaining clients

Enrolled = admitted to practice by the United States Treasury at all administrative levels of the Internal Revenue Service

Agent = representative of the taxpayer, stands in the shoes of the taxpayer

If you do some research on the laws of agency, you would understand.

Surprising that clients have been asking you for 30 years yet you never found out.

entire post) is the only appropriate response?

Most disturbing I've experienced in the years I have followed this forum.

The similarity between you and the IRS is that both of you are trying to play down the fact that "agent" means an agent of the IRS.

You: "'Agent' = representative of the taxpayer, stands in the shoes of the taxpayer"

IRS Pub 4693: " An enrolled agent (EA) is a tax professional who has demonstrated special competence in tax preparation and representation matters, in most cases by passing a comprehensive examination or, in some cases, by virtue of specialized tax law experience as a former IRS employee."

Can you spot the lie? In your case, you're spouting the NAEA party line rather than the way the IRS defines enrolled agent. In the case of the IRS, the lie is not in the representation but from failure to mention (or desire to hide) that about half of EAs never took an exam because they were IRS agents first.

Here's a small sample of EAs who are more forthright about their agency status:

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

Six

Seven

Eight

Nine

Ten

I'll stop at ten for now. Note that I only included examples where the author of the webpage or bio specifically stated that s/he is an enrolled agent of the IRS.

Now Kevin, if you do not believe that an EA is an agent of the IRS, and if you are correct, then either EAs have a massive image problem or a massive branding problem.

Image problem: All of the EAs linked above think they're agents of the IRS. In your view, they're not. If even EAs can't keep their stories straight, how is the public to understand?

Branding problem: 1) Who enrolls the EAs? Who required the test or the experience? The IRS. So then let me ask, for/of whom are the EAs agents? 1b) How do you explain what an EA does (IRS definition or yours, you choose) without mentioning the IRS? 1c) For those EAs who were "formerly" agents of the IRS but are now agents of ... taxpayers, how do you take the IRS agent-ness out of the branding, yet leave it in for effectiveness?

Branding triple bonus question: Complete the following phrase so that a layman without exposure to the world of tax professionals will understand. "I'm a _________________ " using the words "agent," "enrolled" and optionally, "IRS."

The Enrolled Agents did not ask for the title - it was the IRS that termed it and although it's been suggested many times to have it changed (unsuccessfully) -we all have to learn to accept it.

In comparison - there are many states in this country that permit the use of titles such as Public Accountant, Registered Public Accountant, Licensed Public Accountant - who were granted a license by their respective states to perform the SAME services as CPAs without having to pass any exam - just qualify by certain provisions of education and experience.

I realize that a recent new member to this board seems to have a chip on his shoulder and an ax to grind and a very sarcastic approach to expressing himself (not to mention his inability to spell or punctuate properly so a clear thought can be expressed) but that's no reason to come down on entire group of professionals who have earned their title and professional skills the hard way - by EARNING it.

Now there is another level in tax preparation. Soon, hacks will no longer be able to prepare a return for a fee, they now have to have minimum education requirements and be registered. The RTRP group are limited in the services they provide because they haven't passed the required tests.

I do believe if the OP checked the IRS website, he would have found the answers to all of his questions.

There is on mine. It says Chris Kenefick is not a jackass.

Where's your evidence on this?

It's one thing to argue the terminology is misleading, which I agree, and there have been other discussions on suggested alternatives, but to define EAs as agents of the IRS demonstrates, as others have said, a complete misunderstanding of the designation.

WOW, my guess RobAZCPA doesn't have much respect FOR Tax Professionals (aka EA's)

• CPA does not indicate ANY tax knowledge, no Tax exam was ever taken
• EA does not indicate ANY Accounting Knowledge, no Accounting exam was ever taken
• QuickBooks ProAdvisor does not indicate ANY knowledge of QBooks, just that you paid an annual fee
• Certified ProAdvisor indicates that person TOOK exams to Demonstarate knowledge of QBooks

Kevin, this is what I have been talking about, NO decent respect for each other here

That is where a person in the Free Market Captalist System proves they competency!

You are much less competent than the Jackson Hewitt or Liberty Tax preparers, under your logic.

Consumers have voted, and under the free market capitalist system, you have lost. Consumers, voting with their dollars, surely know competence when they see it.

But all of your clients are gansters, murderers and drug dealers

Your "CPA" demonstrates NO competency in Taxation, my diplomas however DO!

You and BobAZCPA share one thing in common, YOU "Belive" YOU are BETTER than an EA, when All a "CPA" Factually states is that you presumably are better in ACCOUNTING than an EA.

My post at the top is far MORE accurate than your ranting!

Go back to YOUR Clientel and what THEY want from you in TAXATION.

Perhaps you can hire PollyAdler, the "Certified BOOKKEEPER" AND Self proclaimed Prostitute.

The best way to shove this one person in particular off this board is to not post responses to his rants and vents. It's already happened and he really got upset noone answered him. He really needs to go back to grammar school to learn how to write, learn diplomatic etiquette, and decency.

Your name says who your clients are I didn't make it up

Mob the "MOB" CPA, take your valium

Kevin I got back "to" you as I promised i would he and BobAZCPA are the ones stating their low opinion of EA's

Well now, exposed, they will "editT this page

This was just my fun & games 15:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)15:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)15:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)15:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)15:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)15:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)~ing

Kevin please go to your #'s 371-374

bye