Discussion:90 day letter - Certified

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Discussion Forum Index --> Advanced Tax Questions --> 90 day letter - Certified


Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> 90 day letter - Certified

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Client received a certified 90 day letter audit. The IRS wants details of travel expenses. Client is panicking due to short time frame to go back and locate receipts for meals, etc. Was the client supposed to get more notice? It seems like something has been missed here. The client swears up and down they never received anything prior to the 90 day letter, and that seems likely. What happens if the client misses the deadline, other than the tax is assessed? Do they have any appeal rights beyond that? I have encouraged them to keep digging for support.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Have you actually read the letter?

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
The 90 day letter would NOT be asking for documentation.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Doesn't sound like it.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Maybe I used the wrong term. The letter is a Notice of Deficiency, "you have 90 days from the date of this letter... to file a petition..........."

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
This *isn't* the first letter your client received. You've jumbled two notices into one in your post.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Well, actually the client is adamant that this is the first notice they have received. The client called the IRS contact on the Notice and was advised to simply put together there support for the claimed expenses and submit it before the end of the 90- day period provided in the letter. I understand they should have received something prior to this, but lets assume for the time being they are telling the truth and did not. Are the choices to provide the support, and if they cannot, the tax will be assessed?

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
What's a letter audit? Chances are that this is a follow up to an assessment from a correspondence audit. If you can talk to the person responsible for the 90 day letter, you might be able to simplify matters. Get a POA from your client and call IRS.

If that doesn't work, it'll be a more arduous process.

Simply sending in the info they are requesting may not be sufficient to protect your client.

TaxSense (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
I can tell you that I have seen more and more of this lately. Like, if you miss an appointment or don't respond to a notice for an examination, after 10 days, they issue the changes completely disallowing the items they were looking for and the 90 day letter all in one shot. They are getting very aggressive here in the local office and accelerating these notices.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Unless you can get the 90-day letter rescinded, tell client to get his act together and pull together the documentation, including the 2848 as Marcilio suggests. Make copies of the documentation, summarize everything in a cover letter, including a tie-back to the actual tax return lines. For example, "You inquired about the taxpayer's 2010 Travel expenses, as shown on Line Whatever of Schedule C. Please see the spreadsheet summary attachment, labeled as 'Exhibit 1,' which details the various individual expenses that add up to the amount shown on Line Whatever of Schedule C. Copies of related documentation have been included as part of Exhibit 1."

...and so on and so forth.

Now, if this doesn't get resolved shortly before the 90-day period ends, have a tax court petition ready...and file it (certified mail, return receipt requested) along w/ the $60 fee. Go to the Tax Court's website to download a petition. It's very easy.

And don't listen to what the IRS is telling you here about "submit everything before the 90-day deadline and you're fine." If you listen to them and simply submit everything prior to the 90-days is up, and then the 90-day deadline passes before things get resolved, guess what? You have no ability to go to the Tax Court for relief.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Marcilio - Apparently that is what it is, an assessment from a correspondence audit that they never received any notice of. Client has not moved, has never been audited before, and the Notice indicates Travel expenses are disallowed, but the client can support it all given research time. I will get a POA and respond timely, but what I am wondering is how the correspondence audit was never communicated to the client. The client has already called and been offered no explanation for the oversight. Has anyone else had this happen? And again thank you for the positive input.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Kenefick - Okay, not I've got it. I need to help them get a reply in well before the 90 days, and have a tax court petition ready just in case. That is what I was missing. The IRS contact minimized the problem, but I see exactly what you are saying now. A tax court petition needs to be on deck. Perfect.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
And what might happen is that you will submit the documents and not hear anything while the 90-days ticks away......keep calling them. If they submit a revised report after the period is up, you are stuck with the result so let them know the petition will be filed.

Flvacpa (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Same events happened to me - out of the blue a 90-day Notice, no CP 2000, client has never moved and collects all his mail, got a member of the US Tax Court Bar, filed a Petition to Tax Court timely ($2,000 fee) - amended the tax return (missing stock sales) included an explanation in the Petition (the Tax Court does not want copies of returns) and filed the 1040X - the Attorney advice was to absolutely file the Petition for Protection - if the Service refuses to process the amended return - the client is in Collections.

Jakescia (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Allow me to echo what CK is advising--- heed his advice.

We had situation wherein client was "coming down" with early Alzheimers (sp?) ---not noticed by friend or family......neglected to mail the signed returns, kept discarding the notices from IRS. Finally daughter saw a notice in the trash can.....sent it to us.

Had thirty days before end of 90-day.

IRS said...oh, no problem, just mail the return to my attention. My question was...what happens if you get side-tracked, and cannot get it reviewed, and notice back to us within period?

IRS comment........well, that could be a problem.......but I am sure it will be ok.

With deficiency of 95K on the table.......we opted to timely file in Tax Court....ten days before final date.........and had not yet heard from IRS on status of the return.

Listen to Chris................and send him 20 bucks for his time! LOL!

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
And every once in a while, God & IRS look down favorably on the United States, drunks and a woman who did not want to 'go to Court' no matter how I explained it. Miscoded 1099R from Merrill Lynch which was directly rolled over but they put '1' on it; we had supplied total proof of the rollover. 23 days after the 90 days expired, IRS revised report and accepted our position (there was still a balance due because of missed interest, but as opposed to 7K plus, she owed 320)......so it does happen, but in my mind she was wrong.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
Usually these things get sorted out, eventually.

Noj (talk|edits) said:

19 February 2013
You can fax/send the information to them or request a field audit. You have to ignor a couple of notices to get the letter.

Tax Writer (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
Same events happened to me - out of the blue a 90-day Notice, no CP 2000, client has never moved and collects all his mail,

Our office had this happen twice in 2012, once with an entity and once with an individual. Normally I'm not inclined to believe the taxpayer in this case, but these two cases were clients who were completely OCD about their records and I know they aren't lying. Taxpayers received the 90 day notice with no other prior correspondence. I have no idea if this is a computer glitch or the IRS is accelerating these notices without cause. It makes me want to file a Form 2848 for everyone, just so it forces a second notice to come to me.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
So, what is our recourse if we never got a CP-2000 (or a 30-day letter)?

Jakescia (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
Tax Writer.......it forces a second notice to come to me.

Since our "alzheimer" experience sometime ago........I frequently get 2848 on those who I think there is even a remote possibility that they might not---for whatever reason---- observe a notice.

And..... in two instances in the last 9 mo, we have NOT received copies of notices......which reinforces my attitude that we need to be more involved in the notice process than we were ten years ago.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
You folks need to pass on this info to your representative organizations. Especially NAEA. They have the power to inquire into these things.

Flvacpa (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
Ckenefick said:

20 February 2013 So, what is our recourse if we never got a CP-2000 (or a 30-day letter)

________________________________________________________________________

Once the date on the 90-day Notice lapses the Assessment becomes a Deficiency - and the US Tax Court has stated "we do not look behind a tax deficiency" - your rights of Due Process have expired. Worse, your time to appeal to the Federal District Court runs within 30-days. Then you must pay it or post a tax appeal bond. If you pay, you may sue within 2-years by filing to the Court of Claims. Or, you may file an Offer In Compromise - "doubt as to liability" and hope the Service rules for you.

My client was lucky I had a POA on file and I got a copy of the 90-day Notice, and I agree its an extra layer of protection to have all tax clients have a POA on file, for this very reason, yes you may have some liability for a CDP Hearing but in my view that's minor in comparison to risking a Tax Deficiency of huge proportions.

TaxSense (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
All this assumes that the representative even sends you notices with a 2848 on file. It has happened more times than I can count that a client gets a notice and sends it to me and i wonder, "Why didn't I get a copy of this?" Then I call the RA or RO and they say, "Oh, I didn't realize there was a representative on this case." How do they miss this stuff? Is it deliberate?

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
Yes, I do believe it is deliberate.

Anyone care to comment on Sec 6330(c)(1)?

TaxSense (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
It's amazing to me how many people's rights are being trampled on every day. I see it all too often. Sometimes, I think we're more an advocate for our clients than the clients themselves. Most people fold up and give up because they think the government must be right. Just like all the CP2000 notices that are WRONG. People pay without questioning because of fear.

MWPXYZ (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
"You folks need to pass on this info to your representative organizations. Especially NAEA"

Not much has changed in the 5 years since the NAEA wrote that Stiff lady about the "shotgun" approach of the IRS. I guess it is back to pumping Advil & Tylenol!

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
TIGTA Finds IRS Doesn't Always Protect Taxpayers, Follow Rules When Filing Liens

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
Then there is the new 2848 where you have to affirm that you want to receive copies of correspondence.....don't think that won't be used as a reason you did not get a copy.

Flvacpa (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
How true - Must check they Box on the new 2848, with respect to TIGTA Reports they also slammed the Correspondence Audits in Cincinnati, Ohio for abusing Taxpayers.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

20 February 2013
I had an issue with one of the "old" POA versions not too long ago...on the old version, you had to affirmatively check the box to NOT get correspondence. I never checked the box, yet I never got any correspondence. I called and bitched and was told that POA was indeed marked to not send correspondence to me. Talk about intentional...Not that it matters or does it matter, maybe....

What about 6330(c)(1)?

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

7 March 2013
Wow, I have not checked in here in a while and I am humbled by the great advice from all! The reason that I checked in today is because the client brought in his records. Long story short, he has about 70% of the support needed for 2009, and all of the support for 2010. The total documentation is good, but, he could not find everything for 2009 and said to go with what he had. I'll send it before this weekend is up, but it is really hard staring the transmittal letter by saying, "well, TP could not find it all for 2009, but does have all of 2010................" And yes, this is a TP who truly never got the CP2000. And, as suggested by most, I will definitely have a Tax Court Petition on deck, our end date is April 3, 2013.

Makes me wonder, does anyone else remember the 1980's, when Congress had to clamp down on hardball practices by the IRS? Are we headed back to that culture? God, I hope not, I may stay with internal audit and stay out of tax practice!

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

7 March 2013
Are we headed back to that culture?

Maybe. It's been a while since the restructing act of '98...but time has passed, and IRS is creeping back to their *old* ways...

Jakescia (talk|edits) said:

7 March 2013
I was just told that IRS cut Bus tax credit for health ins by 8.5% due to sequestration.

If that is true, and if it is true that actual money does not get cut for a "long period".....

....appears that IRS is starting to play "budget hardball" already.

NoVATaxes (talk|edits) said:

7 March 2013
What happens when the tax court deadline is already missed, the deficiency is being paid by installment agreement, and the taxpayer is now able to provide substantiating documents? let's say it's something concrete like cost basis information for stock sales. What happens if the taxpayer files an amended return at this time? Would the service deny it? On what ground?

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

8 March 2013
The service could deny it...on the grounds that they don't have to accept amended returns.

Anyway, file the amended return.

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

8 March 2013
It's too bad you can't use the O-I-C, based on "doubt as to liability" anymore.

Flvacpa (talk|edits) said:

8 March 2013
Are you sure about "can't use OIC doubt as to liability" for relief - I just got a Tax Balance Due reduced by $25 by filing an OIC to Holtsville, New York.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

8 March 2013
Q: What happens when the tax court deadline is already missed, the deficiency is being paid by installment agreement, and the taxpayer is now able to provide substantiating documents?

A:Presidential pardon.

Joanmcq (talk|edits) said:

9 March 2013
Q: What happens when the tax court deadline is already missed, the deficiency is being paid by installment agreement, and the taxpayer is now able to provide substantiating documents?

A: Request an audit recon. I'm about to start one now.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

9 March 2013
A: Request an audit recon. I'm about to start one now.

What is an audit recon?

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

9 March 2013
Audit reconsideration.

RexT2013 (talk|edits) said:

9 March 2013
Who says you can't use OIC based on doubt as to liability? I just filed one a few months ago and got the IRS to stop collection until the liability thing is worked out. The IRS has a 2/2012 version of the form on their website: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f656l.pdf

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

9 March 2013
Marcilio said it.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

24 March 2013
Okay, I have the substantiation to submit to IRS for the Travel and Car And Truck Expenses claimed for 2009 and 2010 by client on self prepared return. Client based original return deductions on general ledger account totals without analysis, hence there is some confusion requiring some schedules and tie in between actual amounts and originally claimed amounts. However, when the actual expenses are compared to the original return, approx. 95% of the originally claimed totals are supported. My guess is that an IRS agent will spend a couple of hours reviewing it, or just say "screw it", it all looks pretty solid to me! Anyway I have one question, as this is my first tax court petition, I do not know whether to recommend "small tax", or "regular tax" case procedures. The total tax owed if client did nothing would be around $14,500. I can't imagine that something like this would go to a Court of Appeals. Any suggestions are welcome.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

24 March 2013
http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/taxpayer_info_start.htm#START12

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

27 March 2013
Thanks Ckenefick! I checked out the link and the packages were mailed certified today. Whew!

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Client brought in with a response from the IRS. After the client prepared and submitted copious detail to the New York IRS Office as requested, the letter is an Answer from the IRS Office of Chief Counsel to the USTC. Basically what the letter says is "we received a letter from the plaintiff, but are denying that the exhibits listed in the letter were included". The IRS goes on to "deny each and every allegation........."

WTF!I myself prepared and put everything in the envelope and took it to the post-office myself. I know the data was included. Is it time for a Tax Attorney? Is this typical, they just ignore you and do what they wish? They could have reviewed what was submitted, I don't get the arrogance this communicates. First client is denied the CP2000 notice, and now this. Not good.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Was a TC petition filed? I'm assuming so since the Chief Counsel is involved. The exhibits may be produced during discovery.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Yes, thanks to this group. I did file the TC Petition. OK, so there us is some hope if the data can be produced during discovery. It helps knowing that.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
As far as getting a tax attorney involved, do note that there are many non-attorney CPAs and EAs who have been admitted to practice before the United States Tax Court. They generally have 'USTCP' behind their names. They have passed an exhausting examination given by the Tax Court to allow them to practice before it.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Ah, just re-read your post, yes the Chief Counsel filed an ANSWER which is a legal document relating to the USTC. At this point, you do need to get someone admitted to the Tax Court involved ASAP unless the taxpayer is going to go forward Pro Se. Giving the taxpayer advice on what to do in response to the ANSWER is the practice of law as the taxpayer's rights and responsibilities are impacted. Don't rely on your E&O coverage to bail you out if you try to help at this level. If the case gets kicked back to appeals then you can help again. If not, be very careful.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Not sure why Chief Counsel is referring to a 'letter' from the taxpayer, and not the petition, though. Are you SURE the taxpayer filed a petition? They don't get filed to the New York IRS office. Has the taxpayer received anything directly from the Tax Court? How about the certified mail receipt from the Tax Court proving something was sent to and received by them?

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
I'm not admitted to the Tax Court. However, it seems like the original Petition + exhibits would be filed with the Clerk of the Tax Court, and the petitioner would have the responsibility of mailing a copy of the petition and exhibits to the attorney for the IRS. Perhaps that's not how it works in Tax Court though.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
This is exactly why the Tax Court has rules restricting who may practice before it: To minimize the irreparable harm that can be done to taxpayers by well-meaning tax professionals and other 'friends/hairdressers/taxi-drivers/mail carriers/nail technicians/Brazilian Wax Aestheticians'.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Yes, Gazoo, you are correct in regards to the petition, but the exhibits aren't usually filed with the court, they are given to the opposing party during Discovery. They can't be admitted to the court until authenticated or 'admitted' by both parties as to authenticity.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Well, of course I agree with you. My point was that when a case is initiated in a clerk of court's office then there is no doubt as to what was attached to the suit (or petition), so I would say that if the procedure is that the petition is initiated with the opposing party AND the opposing party can "conveniently" lose exhibits, then perhaps they need to change the rules. But I understand that this is not a philosophical discussion, and of course I agree that Lrichard's client should retain an authorized practitioner.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Maybe Lrichards would like to retain The One, the Only, the Tax Sport, Master of the Tax Court, The Discovery Man, Whack the IRS with a Ham, Not the Four, Not the Three, but the Five - The Kevin Five!!!!*****!!!

Not sure what box was checked on that TC Petition, but a motion to change venue might be in the cards...or K5 can hop on a plane, he's insane, he feels the pain, IRS is lame, agent is to blame, Bam!

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
I am very concerned with Lricards' statement "I did file the TC Petition." Unless he is admitted to practice before the Court, the taxpayer was supposed to file the petition.

By the way, I totally disagree with some who feel that an unadmitted person may file a fill-in-the-blank petition for another taxpayer, because it takes knowledge of exactly what to say and how to say it in order to preserve the taxpayer's rights. Anything not (correctly stated) in the petition is deemed conceded. That means that the taxpayer's rights have been negatively affected. This is the practice of law.

I wouldn't rely on the kindness of the Court to provide a second chance to amend the petition.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
"Yes, Gazoo, you are correct in regards to the petition, but the exhibits aren't usually filed with the court, they are given to the opposing party during Discovery. They can't be admitted to the court until authenticated or 'admitted' by both parties as to authenticity."

That makes perfect sense to me. In fact, in a normal civil case, just because you attach exhibits to a petition it does NOT mean that such exhibits will necessarily be made a part of the official evidential record in the case. So, what the IRS counsel was doing here was just making it crystal clear that these documents were not just accepted into evidence as a fait accompli, and of course he was also filing the govt.s answer too it sounds like.

But I realize that confusing general civil cases and tax court is/was a mistake and I'll butt out.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
All of the above is pure conjecture on my part. I'm sure Lrichards meant that the taxpayer filed a petition on his own. That way he can't blame someone else if things go South. Like a motion to dismiss because the TC lacks jurisdiction.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Well, its a hybrid. I prepared the USTC Petition for the taxpayers to sign, and I mailed it for them. I did not sign it or make any representations other than it would protect them until the IRS processed the reply. The husband is a professional and I will tell them they can do it themselves, or advise them to find someone. They are good clients and I have let them know that this is now way over my head. How does one go about finding a "USTCP"? Tax Attorneys are probably not going to want to take a case this small, < $10,000.

Its funny in a way, they said the USTC returned the exhibits as not needed with the filing, and the IRS claims they never got them. Somebody is fibbing, or has a lousy filing system.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Let's no go overboard here. The Tax Court is basically an administrative law court. If the Tax Court lacks jurisdiction, which I doubt, the tax can be paid and suit can be filed in a real court.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
@Kevin: Yes. I deal with these freelance unlicensed deed drawers and will drafters and corporate experts every day. I know where you're coming from. Get proper qualified representation. And I haven't congratulated you yet for becoming a member of the Tax Court bar, so I'll do that now. Congratulations!

That could be true Chenefick, and pro se clients do win in tax court, but when a unadmitted practitioner "ghost writes" or ghost coaches the pro se, they are on the line for at least malpractice if they fu...so the client can turn on them.. It happens frequently in all areas.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
And all the Tax Court Petition said was "we disagree because we have substantiation", and "here is the data we have to back it up and was provided to the IRS."

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Tax Attorneys are probably not going to want to take a case this small, < $10,000.

At K5 pointed out, you don't necessarily need a tax attorney. Give K5 a call, his hourly is only $1,000,000, before the standard 5% discount for Tax Almanac poster.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Lrichards, no one is fibbing. The Tax Court stripped the exhibits off when it (at least it sounds like) they received the petition/letter. They didn't get sent to Chief Counsel because they got sent back to you.

As far as finding a USTCP, you may want to google the term to find someone near you. A few contributors to this forum are USTCPs, among them: User:DaveFogel , User:NYEA and maybe others.

I have not yet sent in my $35 application fee to be admitted because of some personal issues going on in the last 3 weeks which required my utmost attention. Once I send it in, I expect to be admitted, as I have passed the exam and have recommendation letters waiting on me at the TC.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Thank you, Gazoo. I anxiously await using my knowledge and new credentials for fun AND profit.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Yes, I saw that issue on Tril's post and I know it must have been nerve-wracking for you and I hope all turned out well. You acceptance is routine at this point I'm sure.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Thank you for your vote of confidence and thoughtful concern.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
I was thrown out of a courtroom window by a tax court bailiff on orders of the judge, otherwise I would be glad to add my letter to your file. It's probably best if I don't under the circumstances. It was a long time ago, back when the courts had windows.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Did I ever tell you about the time I left a *footprint* on an auditor's desk?

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Yeah, I hear they have Apples now. Better user interfacia.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Chris, is this the same story where the CPA wins the bet because he is standing on the auditor's desk peeing all over the audit papers? I love that one.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
http://blog.appletreebusiness.com/2009/03/21/when-peeing-on-an-irs-auditor-pays-off/

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Ckenefick "1,000,000 an hour" Hilarious :) How about a 10% discount?

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
No, it's a different one, but that one was way better!!

It was kinda like that "let's bet to see who can punch the other guy the softest." Let your friend punch you first. He'll punch you real soft. Then, you lay him out. He wins the bet.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
How about a 10.40% discount - get it?

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Yes

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
I was thrown out of the courtroom whinder and I was crucified on a huge sticker bush which fortunately broke my fall. Two off duty Peace Corps. nurses happened by and they pulled me off of the bush, found my dentures, bandaged a couple of serious wounds I had, and I was on my way. Not deterred. Those were the good old days when you could have fun as a professional. All the sport is gone out of it today, everyone is entirely too serious now.

That is the bad thing about laws. Every year they keep making more of them and there's more to muddle through before you can get to the point. They never clear the weeds out, it gets to the point that you peter out on the vine and you have to leave it for the young ones who don't know what misery lies in wait for them.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
I am curious, Kevin [remember, "I am Curious (Yellow)]. Is your only requirement an application to the Tax Court? If I recall, an attorney must supply some type of certificate of good standing that he can practice before his state's Supreme Court.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
We can talk about tax law all day. Here is what it looks like to two young professional taxpayers, husband and wife. They incurred legitimate travel expenses. The IRS skipped the CP2000 notice period, went straight to a hard ball 90 day notice. TP scrambled to put together detail under immense time pressure, and a Tax Court Petition had to be filed. Now the TP is forced to go to Tax Court, and the last letter received (the "Answer) was signed by two Attorneys for the Office of Chief Counsel. If this is not intimidating I do not know what the definition of intimidating is. Hopefully, the Tax court will be more balanced and objective. I will find them counsel, they are to afraid to go alone.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Did they file under Small Case Tax Procedures, or regular case procedures?

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Don't be intimidated. This is how it works. You've filed a petition to have your unagreed case heard before a court. Basically, this is your complaint. IRS has submitted its Answer to your complaint. Your petition was short, but the "assignments of error" you included should be valid. Things will proceed.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
By the way, I totally disagree with some who feel that an unadmitted person may file a fill-in-the-blank petition for another taxpayer, because it takes knowledge of exactly what to say and how to say it in order to preserve the taxpayer's rights. Anything not (correctly stated) in the petition is deemed conceded.

This is critically important...hence K5 being on his soapbox about it.

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
David, I am not an attorney. Non-attorneys can only get admitted to Tax Court by passing a rigorous examination given only once every two years, plus being 'sponsored' by two people already admitted to the court, paying the application fee, and signing a sworn oath to support the Constitution of the United States in practice before the Court.

In the history of the U.S. Tax Court, there have been fewer than 250 people who have passed the exam, so I'm told.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
I've followed your progress avidly; I was curious whether there was any other qualification needed to argue a case besides passing the test(I recall having to secure something about my lawyer boss' Pennsylvania Supreme Court admittance being needed.....Rule 200). A reading of that Rule shows once you apply, they should admit you! Congratulations!

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
Thank you. It honestly would have been easier to have taken 3 years of law school and passed the state bar exam. Attorneys in good standing before the bar of any state in the US merely have to pay the $35 fee and sign a statement that they are in good standing.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
http://www.stanley-ley.co.uk/acatalog/barrister-bags.html

This is the bag you put all your client's messy papers in and your legal brief (prepared by a solicitor) with instructions you are to carry out on behalf of the client in court. It preceded the brief case, with the advantage that it could be dry cleaned if needed. Unfortunately, they are probably machine washable, permanent press today.

Podolin (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
This is the bag you put all your client's messy papers in In a pinch, it is useful also for dog poop.

Gazoo (talk|edits) said:

14 May 2013
The worst are the divorce clients. I've had bits of crayons and chewed on pencils, greasy papers, hair they've pulled out of each other's heads, love notes from the other woman, lipstick on napkins, KFC and Taco bell coupons (expired). You name it. All mixed in with their papers.

Tkelly911 (talk|edits) said:

15 May 2013
Lrichards, if you received an answer then a case has been filed, although this is very easy to verify at the Tax Court website. Either wait for appeals to contact you or call the IRS attorney and ask who the appeals officer is, and contact them. If this is a CP2000 then you will almost certainly be assigned to a campus appeals officer and you can take up the issues of travel expenses with them and resolve the case. Depending on where the place of trial was selected you could have up to a year before the trial date.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

15 May 2013
In the history of the U.S. Tax Court, there have been fewer than 250 people who have passed the exam, so I'm told.

Wow.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

16 May 2013
Tkelly911

IRS skipped the CP2000 notice, client received the 90 day letter, it was there first notice. They filed on extension for 2009, and the statute of limitations for 2009 expires in October 2013, hence I believe this may help understand the IRS's zeal to ignore anything reasonable and prudent, and just push the TP as hard as they can. It at least appears that way, I of course could be wrong. At times I think the reasonable and prudent standard is only in the Code, and the IRS does not think it applies to them, just to taxpayers:). I of course could be wrong.

Tkelly911 (talk|edits) said:

17 May 2013
The Automated Under-Reporter Unit (AUR) works on a strict timeline and issues NODs often regardless of a standing request for appeals. For example, I always include an elaborate request for appeals in every CP2000 response I submit, with the specific statement the taxpayer intends to exhaust his or her administrative remedies prior to the issuance of the 90 day letter. This satisfies one of the many prerequisites to obtaining attorney fees under IRC § 7430 because no opportunity to participate in an appeals conference was offered.

Nonetheless, if you have established yourself as the representative (per Circular 230) for the petitioner in the docketed case (I mean in terms of administrative representation, not litigation representation) you will now be contacted by appeals and given the chance you did not get before to present evidence, with the added bonus of having a live human being with a phone number to actually discuss the case with, something we all know is not a practical reality while working the CP2000 in the AUR unit.

Ckenefick (talk|edits) said:

17 May 2013
For example, I always include an elaborate request for appeals in every CP2000 response I submit, with the specific statement the taxpayer intends to exhaust his or her administrative remedies prior to the issuance of the 90 day letter. This satisfies one of the many prerequisites to obtaining attorney fees under IRC § 7430 because no opportunity to participate in an appeals conference was offered.

Excellent. Are you saying that you do this, full knowing that your "elaborate request for appeals" will be ignored...and then the NOD will come?

Tkelly911 (talk|edits) said:

17 May 2013
Exactly. I do this in the event, as happened early in my career, Appeals tried to deny me fees because I was offered appeals consideration because they asserted it was mentioned in whatever publication accompanied the initial notice. Now it cannot be disputed I requested appeals and was, of course, not given the opportunity to go there. There are so many conditions precedent to getting fees, but this is one of the easiest to establish where the CP2000 is concerned. In office and field exams being sent to appeals upon request has never been an issue unless the ASED is approaching, since as I am sure you are aware blowing the ASED is an IRS felony.

I see this scenario most often when the TCO or RA wants to "pick up" and open a prior year with less than 6 months, and I won't sign the 872, usually because Exam is very inflexible and insists on a fixed period, usually a year. They will then send the file to the 90 day unit to issue the notice. In rare cases they will drop the adjacent year issue altogether.

Noj (talk|edits) said:

18 May 2013
The 90 day letter should always be thought of as a time to get items resolved.. If you do not think they received all your information you sent CALL THEM.. I have found it can take a while to get to the right person, but always have been easy to deal with and results happen quickly. I have never had the 90 day where the client had not reacted to the CP2000. Call them - fax information they are misssing and make sure they are not rejecting the information you have sent. The letter is to get things done and not get it to tax court.

Good LUCK..

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

25 May 2013
Thank you all. A letter from Appeals arrived last week. It is odd though, I thought Appeals came in after the IRS and TP disagreed on audit issues. IRS has not lifted a finger to look at anything sent to them in this case. I guess Appeals is going to do the audit?

Tkelly911 (talk|edits) said:

26 May 2013
Lrichards, as I said in my earlier post, you would be given a chance to settle this whole matter with appeals. This is spelled out in Revenue Procedure 87-24. The case could still be in the AUR unit but even if the administrative file has not been forwarded, you will be able to deal with Appeals. The letter you received is most likely a "Welcome to Appeals" communication, but it should have the name of an appeals officer (most likely campus appeals) you can contact if you want to get the case moving forward. Also, it is at this point that you have the opportunity to ask for a transfer to the field if you would rather handle the case at the local level. If nothing else, you should contact the appeals officer to determine how much, if any information was forwarded from the campus exam group. Don't be surprised if you have to send everything all over again.

Appeals officers are not TCOs or RAs and they do not want to do the kind of work these exam level workers do. If you are able to package your documentation concisely into a solid presentation showing why the deficiency should be abated most appeals officers will allow what you are asking for and agree to settle the case on your terms. They have a substantial inventory and appreciate tax professionals who make their job easier by putting together a presentation which will pass muster with their supervisor, who is called an Appeals Team Leader. From there a settlement offer memorialized in signed decision documents goes back to Chief Counsel where it is again subject to managerial approval.

Remember that even in a docketed case, representation before Appeals is controlled by Circular 230, and you most certainly do not have to be admitted to the Tax Court bar to represent your client in this forum. The decision documents themselves are another matter, as these are legal pleadings, so if the client is pro se, they would have to sign once a settlement is reached.

Lrichards (talk|edits) said:

27 May 2013
Very clear TKelly911. Thanks for the heads up. It is a "Welcome to Appeals" letter. We will contact the Appeals Officer next week.

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