Discussion:Offers and compromise on payroll taxes

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Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Offers and compromise on payroll taxes

Ramfan (talk|edits) said:

27 June 2007
One of my best clients had some troubles a couple of years ago when a national company they did a lot of work for filed for bankruptcy.

The company does not have any debt other than some back payroll taxes on the federal level. The owner is wanting to clear this up and I have never thought of the O & C for payroll taxes. He is current on all other taxes makes his deposits right on time and all state payroll taxes were paid.

Just curious if this is an option so we can clear him up and save a some money, he has sold some property and wants to use that to settle this debt

Lhhesscpa (talk|edits) said:

27 June 2007
First, the program is Offer IN Compromise. Although I don't think it's an official policy of the IRS, there is a VERY low liklihood that the IRS will approve any OIC for an employer that is still in business and has continuing payroll. -- Larry Hess, CPA | Albuquerque, NM | Talk to me

Ramfan (talk|edits) said:

27 June 2007
Thanks, just typed in a hurry while doing some other things.

I had never heard of the OIC for payroll taxes and talked with another acct today and he hadn't either.

Thanks anyway, just reaching

Kevinh5 (talk|edits) said:

27 June 2007
Ram, you've been around long enough to fill out your profile. Care to do it? You will get better answers if you do.

Skasselea (talk|edits) said:

27 June 2007
Kevin is correct. Some of us don't even answer questions posed by other tax pros if they haven't posted a profile.

Isdrabkin (talk|edits) said:

30 June 2007
An offer in compromise can be done on any tax liability, including payroll taxes. There are 3 kinds of offers: doubt as to collectibility; doubt as to liability; and effective tax administration. Most offers are filed because of the doubt as to collectibility. The issue that the IRS considers in reviewing the offer what is the minimum amount they can collect based on the taxpayer's income and assets. What kind of tax is at issue is not relevant, as long as the taxpayer is currently compliant.

TheTinCook (talk|edits) said:

30 June 2007
So they'll do an OIC for trust fund taxes?

Michaelstar (talk|edits) said:

30 June 2007
Yes - I have done one for a client a number of years ago - things may have changed since then other than the obvious OIC program in general but it is possible.

Lhhesscpa (talk|edits) said:

1 July 2007
An offer for trust funds taxes? Not likely. Before doing that, IRS will assess the trust fund recovery penalty on the responsible individuals. I suppose IRS might accept an offer on the penalty. Repeating what I said earlier, although technically offers can be made for payroll taxes, my experience in recent times is that there is a VERY low liklihood that the IRS will accept OIC from an employer that is still in business and has continuing payroll (i.e., potential for getting into trouble again). -- Larry Hess, CPA | Albuquerque, NM | Talk to me

Michaelstar (talk|edits) said:

2 July 2007
Larry - I did not say that I did to here myself speak! So YES - likely!

Skasselea (talk|edits) said:

3 July 2007
In fact, it is VERY, VERY difficult to get an OIC accepted for in business trust fund taxes. First, the Offer must encompass the entire ability to pay of ALL responsible individuals since accepting an Offer wipes out the Trust Fund. So, either multiple Offers if there are multiple responsible parties or one giant offer. Second, it makes for a logistical nightmare. Third, because there is a potential for future compliance problems, it does make it doubly difficult. The key are the words "in business". I don't care either whether the taxes are payroll, income, excise, whatever. But it does matter if it involves payroll taxes are for an on-going concern.

Michaelstar (talk|edits) said:

3 July 2007
Steve - you are absolutely correct. It was so very, very difficult that I will NEVER participate in one again - EVER. I will suggest the client seek another professional such as you as you are in the business for this sort of thing.

What pisses me off even more than anything else about the whole thing is - the client later screwed it all up - declared bankruptcy thinking they could get out of it after I told them they could not - the IRS then hit them up with the 100% penalty. I walked away from the client at that point but still receive copies of the IRS letters since I had a POA for the period which only still confirms a number of years later they still have not taken care of the penalty. Some people are just rock dead dumb!

Lhhesscpa (talk|edits) said:

3 July 2007
Michael, when I disengage from a client for whom I have an IRS POA I notify the IRS that I am withdrawing the POA out of concern that I might incur professional liability as long as I receive notices, especially those with deadlines. -- Larry Hess, CPA | Albuquerque, NM | Talk to me

Wedwards (talk|edits) said:

24 October 2008
I have done several offers involving payroll taxes, even with a currently operating company. They can be done but not easily.

IRS will always try to get the withheld taxes if at all possible, so that should be considered almost the minimum offer.

Do not try to scam the IRS on these though. Things can get very nasty. The investigators are well trained and do a lot of analysis.

Irsfixer (talk|edits) said:

24 October 2008
What do you mean by nasty? I have had offers with a lot of things to argue about but they do not get nasty. Furthermore, I generally find offer specialists these days to be poorly trained and lack the ability to do analysis. I have not had an offer rejected since 2003 but I get most off them done in Appeals these days.

Mscash (talk|edits) said:

25 October 2008
In theory, an offer from a company--I'm presuming yours is a corporation--in business can be accepted. The first thing it must do is be in full compliance for at least two quarters. The amount that must be offered is the amount that could be collected from the responsbile persons of a corporation if it assessed the trust fund recovery penalty plus what it could collect from the taxpayer/corporation.

Naknekm (talk|edits) said:

5 November 2008
Here is a section of a memo from early this year that addresses Trust Fund Offers in Compromise. They basically don't like them, but there are circumstances where they will be accepted. Usually, they want at least the amount of the raw tax to be paid. The TP must also have 2 quarters of perfect compliance for the offer to even be accepted for processing.

We have submitted many offers for businesses in these circumstances. They are difficult, but not impossible to get accepted.

If you need further information about this, feel free to contact me.

Marty Martelle www.martellelaw.org


Corporate Trust Fund Procedures1 For offers in compromise involving a corporation, the amount acceptable to compromise a corporate employment tax liability will represent what can be collected from the corporation without looking to the responsible person(s). If the Service enters into a compromise with an employer for a portion of the trust fund tax liability, the remainder of the trust fund taxes may still be collected from a responsible person by assessing a trust fund recovery penalty (TFRP) pursuant to Section 6672 of the Internal Revenue Code. Thus, the corporate reasonable collection potential (RCP) will no longer include the RCP of the responsible person(s). For offers involving corporations, the trust fund portion of the tax liabilities must be paid, the trust fund package forwarded for assessment or the TFRP assessed against all responsible persons, before the Service will investigate an offer. If the TFRP has not been assessed against all responsible persons, revenue officers have two options when they negotiate with the corporate principals: 1. If the corporation wishes to file an offer, all responsible persons must first agree to the assessment of the TFRP. The revenue officer must secure basic documentary evidence per LEM 5.7 to support assertion of the TFRP. In addition, generally all responsible persons must sign Form 2751, Proposed Assessment of Trust Fund Recovery Penalty. Note: The signing of the Form 2751 does not preclude the responsible person from challenging the assessment by paying a divisible portion of the tax2 filing a refund claim and, if unsuccessful, a refund suit. If extenuating circumstances are present which prevent the assessment of the TFRP against all responsible persons, the revenue officer, after consulting with a manager, may consider processing the OIC without the assessment of all potential responsible persons. For example, if a potential responsible person cannot be located, the revenue officer may allow the corporate OIC to be considered if the Government’s interests are sufficiently protected if the other responsible persons have agreed to the assessment of the TFRP. 2. Alternatively, the responsible person(s) can personally full pay the trust fund amount on behalf of the corporation. IRM 5.7.4.4 contains instructions when a responsible person chooses to pay on behalf of the corporation. Failure of the responsible persons to satisfy either option will result in a "solely to delay" determination if the corporation files an offer. See IRM 5.8.3.19. 1 For the purposes of this memo the use of the term corporate or corporation also applies to any entity in which assertion of the trust fund recovery penalty is applicable 2The responsible person must pay the amount equivalent to the withholding tax of one employee for one taxable period in order to establish refund suit jurisdiction 2 Offers submitted on corporate accounts in Status 26 before assessment of the TFRP, but subsequent to the corporate principals being advised that an offer will not be processed unless the TFRP has been assessed or the trust funds paid, will be returned as "solely to delay" collection. The assigned revenue officer will retain the balance due case, and annotate this on Form 657. The offer will be returned by COIC without input of ST 71 in accordance with the Form 657. Note: If the liabilities are not currently in status 26 and/or the responsible individuals had not been previously advised that an offer will not be investigated unless the TFRP has been assessed or the trust funds paid, the offer specialist will retain the offer and issue another investigation (OI) to the field. Only the amount that can be collected from the corporation (including dissipated assets) will be considered in the RCP calculation of an acceptable corporate offer. The Service will pursue collection of the TFRP (unless the trust fund portion has been full paid) assessed against the responsible persons. A taxpayer may designate TIPRA payments (pre-acceptance) to a specific liability including trust fund liabilities. Once the offer has been accepted, the taxpayer no longer has the right to designate payments and post-acceptance payments will be applied in the government’s best interest. Pre-acceptance payments designated to trust fund must be posted using designated payment code (DPC) 02. During initial analysis of an offer received from a corporation involving unpaid trust fund tax, the Offer Specialist must determine the Assessment Statute Expiration Date (ASED) of each period and take immediate steps to protect the statute if expiration is imminent. 3 The following actions should be taken based on the facts of the case: If… Then the Offer Specialist will … Then the RO will… The account is in status 26 and the taxpayer has been previously advised that an offer will not be considered until the trust fund is paid or assessed Return the offer as solely to delay collection Retain the balance due case and complete the trust fund investigation Trust fund tax is due and the corporate account is not assigned to an RO when the offer is submitted and the TFRP has not been assessed. Generate an outgoing OI (coded 100) to the appropriate field group to conduct the TFRP investigation. Coordinate with the RO to ensure the TFRP is assessed or trust fund portion fully paid by the responsible person(s). Note: a formal appeal of the proposed TFRP will result in return of the offer as “solely to delay” Complete the TFRP investigation. OI should be completed within 90 days. The ASED has expired without any TFRP assessment Annotate the expiration in the case history and continue processing the offer determining only the corporation’s RCP. Determine if the ASED expired after the offer was received. If the ASED expired after the offer was received, prepare an expired statute notification and submit to your manager for processing. See 5.7.3.8 When the Service accepts an offer from a corporation to compromise trust fund taxes, the offer payments may not satisfy the entire trust fund portion of the tax liability due to the manner in which accepted offer payments are applied. Therefore, any related TFRP assessments will remain open for collection. Offer payments (other than partial payments made under TIPRA in conjunction with proposed offers) are applied in the best interest of the government, and any open trust fund portions are paid last.

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