Discussion:EA vs. CPA exam

The EA exam is an exam covering basic tax law. The CPA exam is an exam covering accounting, business law, auditing, and accounting. Most states are requiring at least 5-years of study before sitting for this exam.

I passed only the SEE (Special Enrollment Exam), and I compared to Riley, I feel like a bug!!!! LOL... Anyway, I was preparing to go for my CPA when an instructor, an Enrolled Agent, asked me what I really wanted to do. So, like a lot of us, I said, "I want to do taxes!" She recommended the SEE. So, I quit my well paying job last July and stayed at home to study for the SEE; Every day, eight hours a day, for 3 months. I took the exam in September, 2005, and passed, and am currently in the application process (Form 23).

Being 41, I Will say that CPA's know a lot about case study and law review. I'm a newbie, and I am now seriously considering working for a CPA firm simply for the extended experience.

Taxes are only one part of being a CPA, and this is reflected in their training and on the exam. I personally don't want to do trail balances and audits, I want to do taxes. I am looking forward to the time when my experience will allow me to represent taxpayers before the IRS.

Forgive my typoooos....trail balances....the Santa Fe Trail Balances......

Please give yourself plenty of time to study for the SEE; even if you have lot of tax experience, unlike me. The Partnership and Corporate tests focus on unique issues that do not always arise in the world of day-to-day taxation. There are specific areas of study that the IRS "tweaks" out on. Riley is the exception to most of us. What he, or she thinks, is particular to him. The SE is tough. With a 30% pass rate, I was really worried that I would succeed. In fact the person that wrote the exam books was surprised that I passed; which is not saying much for his books.... but, I did study a lot. You will not learn taxes from the SEE. What you will learn are some basic foundations that link most taxable entities together.

Now, forgive my ignorance. I've not heard of the SEE. How does that compare to EA? Congrats on passing!

Chris2Lane, I would have to say that the CPA exam is considerably more difficult than the CFP exam; however, I would say that if you have an undergraduate degree in accounting with at least a B average, I wouldn’t think you would have any problem with the CPA exam.

Skyhatt, since I know nothing about your background, it would be impossible for me to say whether the EA exam will be challenging or easy for you. I do know that Gleim has a battery of assessment tests that you can use to design your own EA study program (using Gleim’s assistance and materials). Some of my employees were able to cut their study time down to a few hours after isolating their weak areas. In addition, if you decide to sit for the CPA exam, Gleim’s CPA review program and outlines are outstanding. My wife used some of Gleim’s business law outlines to study for the California bar exam.

I did pass the SEE exam and each year thereafter have taken the required CPE credits to maintain my EA status with the IRS. In my opinion, having the EA initials after my name really doesn't have any affect on my earning power with my clients. What does is my reputation, as it really should be with any professional preparer.

However, studying for and taking the EA exam did open up my eyes to the many different aspects of the whole taxation process. Oftentimes I become overwhelmed at everything. Its almost like the more I research and study the IRC code, the less I know--kind of like digging deeply into the Bible.

This year I am really grateful to have come across this forum. I have already gleaned tons of useful information and I wish to thank everyone for their contributions. Let's face it. None of us know the answers to every situation every time. But it is really nice to be able to exchange opinions and share what we know with each other.

A great day to everyone!!

My sister, who is also a CPA, decided to do sit for the exam without an accounting degree, and she did just fine, although she had to buy a full-blown review course. One of the secretaries in my firm also sat for the exam with just a high school education and she passed alll 4 parts on the first sitting (although the firm paid for a Becker course).

I live in California, and individuals who meet certain requirements may sit for both the California bar exam and the CPA exam without a college background (although a law degree is required for the bar). The CPA exam is uniform throughout the United States (at least it used to be). California has introduced legislation to create its own version of the exam due to legislative concern that the existing exam was not a good indicator of professional competence.

I do not recommend sitting for the CPA exam with only a high school education. This is more torture than anyone should have to endure.

I WAS LOOKING IN A MANUAL AND , I AGREE WITH RILEY2 , CPA EXAM IS HARDER THAN OTHERS.

If any of you need to know the education requirements for your state they are published by the national assosiation of State Boards of Accountancy, and your local State Board of Accoutancy: http://www.nasba.org/nasbaweb.nsf/exam

Talking with other people, there's usually one section of the CPA exam that gets people (often financial accounting). After repeated test taking, some people form a mental block I guess. Interestingly, I found studying for the bar exam required more time and effort than the CPA exam, but the the bar passing rate in my particular class was around 90-something percent.

A CPA that passed the exam under CA requirements would have a lot of work to do to become certified in the state of Michigan (via reciprocity). Michigan, as well as most states, has adopted the 150-hour requirement as suggested by the AICPA.

PATHWAY 0 – SECTION 5083

􀂃 Alternative 1. Baccalaureate or higher degree. The applicant must have completed a minimum of 45 semester units in accounting/auditing and business-related courses, of which at least 10 semester units must be in accounting/auditing.

􀂃 Alternative 2. The equivalent to Alternative 1, obtained outside the United States. An evaluation by a Board-approved evaluation service must be obtained and include a course-by-course breakdown. Official evaluations must be mailed to the Board directly from the Boardapproved credential evaluation service. See Page 23 for a complete list of Board-Approved Foreign Credentials Evaluation Services. The applicant must have completed a minimum of 45 semester units in accounting/auditing and business-related courses, of which at least 10 semester units must be in accounting/auditing courses. If the required accounting/auditing and business-related units were not completed within the foreign education, the applicant must have completed the remaining required units at a U.S. degree-granting college, university or other institution of learning as indicated under Pathway 0 Recognized Schools above. 21

􀂃 Alternative 3. 120 semester units of study with no degree. The applicant must have completed a minimum of 45 semester units in accounting/auditing and business-related courses, of which at least 10 semester units must be in accounting/auditing courses.

􀂃 Alternative 4. Successful completion of any two general College Level Examination Program (CLEP) examinations and 10 semester units of accounting subjects from a university, college, or other institution of learning accredited by a regional or national accrediting agency.

Pathway 0 Experience Requirements Depending upon an applicant’s education, P0 requires a 24, 36, or 48-month experience requirement that must include attest experience. Although no minimum number of hours has been prescribed for licensure, it may be difficult for an applicant to obtain Section 11.5 experience of a sufficient character and variety in less than 500 hours.

􀂃 Section 5083 of the California Accountancy Act requires a 36-month experience requirement if an applicant meets Alternatives 1 or 2 as described under P0 Educational Requirements.

􀂃 Section 5084 of the California Accountancy Act allows qualifying applicants under Alternatives 1 or 2 to reduce the experience requirement to 24 months, if the applicant has graduated from a regionally or nationally accredited educational institution and has completed a minimum of 20 semester units, or the equivalent, in accounting/auditing courses.

􀂃 Section 5083 of the California Accountancy Act requires a 48-month experience requirement if an applicant meets Alternatives 3, 4, or 5 as described under P0 Educational Requirements. All experience must be performed in accordance with applicable professional standards. Experience obtained through employment in public accounting will be considered to have met the general experience requirement only if it was performed under the supervision of an individual holding a valid active license or comparable authority to practice public accounting in any state or country. 22 Experience obtained through nonpublic accounting will be considered to have met the general experience requirement only if it was performed under the supervision of an individual holding a valid active license to practice public accounting in the United States. Applicants must meet the requirements for “active” status when they are approved for initial licensure. Therefore, it is required that the applicant have current knowledge of the practice of public accounting. This knowledge is demonstrated for initial licensure by completion of the current exam and/or license experience within the past five years.

See http://www.dca.ca.gov/cba/forms/applbook.pdf

Chris2lane was asking for that information because he is planning to take the test.

Look I passed the EA exam and I later passed the CPA exam and I took the EA exam because of one thing it was supposed to be easier, I did not realize how much easier until I studied for the CPA exam. The reason I hit the books and decided to go after the CPA license is because the EA designation never did anything for me either trying to get a job or eventually trying to get a client. The CPA exam today is a bit easier than it was back in my day of no calculators, three day tests and essay + long problems. I suggest if you plan on marketing yourself and have the time and dedication shoot for the CPA designation.

I am not suggesting that there are not a great deal of smart and successful business consultants with other designations EA, SEE, CFP etc. nor am I trying suggesting that a CPA knows more small business or individual tax. I am just trying to tell you that if you want respect in this business get the CPA title. Also, as some others have alluded to thats just the first step (a big one of course) but you need to get licensed in your state which requires different things in different states but if you are not licensed you cannot use the term CPA. Peace out!

15 years ago I took the CPA test. Took it once. Never again. Did not pass. Focused instead on my area of expertise at the time which was Internal Audits for a large retail store chain. At one time, I was supervising 10 newly licensed CPA's which collectively could not conduct a store audit or properly reconcile a bank account, much less document the work they did. I had one CPA who actually ERASED her near complete workpapers, conclusions, etc. to re-write them neater. Her lines were crooked and it didn't look nice! I also had one hotshot CPA who called store security on the 70 year old clerk when he was counting petty cash and the register til fund because they were out of balance by a whopping $3.12

So CPA, EA, BTF(Bumbling Tax Fool) designations themselves don't mean much. Its what you make of the designation by your own actions.

Of course the CPA industry does effectively market itself with the illusion that you are a mere clown if you are not certified.

I strongly urge anyone who can get the CPA credential to go for it.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard the type of interaction that goes: "Hi, I'm an accountant (or tax expert)", to which the reply is "Oh, are you a CPA?". It's really great to be able to say yes, vs no but but ....

Of course there are many CPA's who are incompetent and just plain dishonest - just read the lists of license revocations, and many non-CPA tax experts who are absolutely brilliant, so the issue is somewhat of a marketing one. Nevertheless, this is your lifelong career, and you'll never regret investing in the credential.

Many times over the course of your career your clients will ask you to call their bankers, stockbrokers etc and I'm convinced you have instant credibility when you introduce yourself as Joe's CPA, vs Joe's EA or Joe's accountant. Plus, I believe that letters you send out under your CPA letterhead have more force than not.

Good luck!

As far as the CPA exam goes, I took it in 1996 and passed with flying colors. I took the Becker's review course and followed all of their suggestions. I studied more than 100 hours. I am currently considering taking the CFE (Certified Fraud Examiner) exam. Forensic accounting is very interesting to me -- those fraudsters are SO creative!

I have often pondered taking the CPA exam as well as going after my MBA. I've reached a pretty good level professionally without the two. In fact, I would never hire an MBA right out of college. This only goes for the MBA. It does not apply to those with a Masters in Taxation or a Masters of Fine Arts. Why? Because every single MBA that I've interviewed were arrogant and condascending. And the one that I did hire was so incompetent that he was eventually let go. I got impressed by the initials that time. Never again. Now an MBA with many years of experience, that's different. I'd consider those.

As for CPAs, there are competent ones and not so competent ones. Having dealt with audit teams for many years, I've met a few who didn't even have the concept of debits and credits down. Hmmm. Accounting 101??

Ric

15 CPAs, 2 MST, 3 unerolled preparer did the return by hand before I would interview them. 1 got the answer correct. It took him twice as long as the others, but he's the one I hired that year. He was a retired CPA.

Moral of the story:

Credentials alone don't mean competence.

I would hire an EA over a CPA if they both got the correct answer. Why? representation in multiple states. A CPA really is only licensed in the particular state for which they hold a license. The EA license is nationwide.

Some people say that the EA exam is easier. That can be true because the candidates have a lot of experience doing tax. They have always done some research to resolve some difficulties. CPA do not use 20% of their knowlegde. EA use 90%. They can answered 9 questions out of 10 concerning tax. CPA cannot unless he or she is specialised in Taxation.

John Huddleston Seattle Bellevue Tax Accountant

Joe Doe, AA, BS, MBA, PhD, CPA - all that dont make much sense.

It always better to be a CPA than an EA. Them EAs is hardworkin and smart folks but they just aint ever been thru what it takes to git that cert. Them perfessors live to weed out the unfit and you jest hope they dont draw on a bead on YOU. That exam just suck the joy of livin outta you. When you done and you pass you know for the rest of your days that nothin can be that tough. When you done you know you done something big. You a changed person and better for it.

Personally, these tests are passages in life, and while I love my EA designation, the one I look back at with the most pride is twice qualifying as an expert rifleman with a M-14, the second time with only 15 minutes allowed to zero an unfamiliar rifle and hitting 74 of 84 targets.....wait a minute, I am even more proud of the trophy from Company D-1-1, Basic Training Ft Jackson SC for being best all-around trainee. It has a place of pride in my office.

As a side note, I never saw a fibreglass stock M-14 without a crack near the gas release port, so if D&T qualified using one of those his score is even more impressive. The wood stocks had to have linseed oil wipedowns, but they didn't crack.

By the way, D&T, I like the alphabetical order idea. We need to add CFE between BS and CFP. I'll be taking that exam next fall.

John Huddleston Seattle Bellevue Tax Accountant

(1) Because it's harder to pass, the CPA exam requires a great level of aptitude and perseverence. These two qualities are key to a client who is considering having an individual handling their financial situations. A prospective client would be foolish to believe ANY kind of tax specialist knows EVERYTHING about tax without having to do research. If they are wise, they should look for someone who has the aptitude and perseverence to research and consider all of the facts in arriving at the answer. Experience is good too, but also doesn't necessarily mean anything. I have worked for organizations of all different sizes (ranging from 12 --> 17,000+ employees) where the older folk have many years of working (or just showing up to work) in their field, yet don't keep up with the changing times and/or can't handle the mental challenges of today's issues. The best example of this is the impact of Information Technology.

(2) Dentists are required to take much of the same university training that other doctors must take. They have to learn all about the body...not just the teeth. Such is the same with CPAs and taxes. Would you believe a "teeth specialist" (if such a thing existed) would be more capable than a D.D.S.? No, you wouldn't...especially if it took a LOT less schooling and preparation to become one over a D.D.S.

It just says something about the aptitude and perseverence of the professional if they are willing to go through all of that schooling...sitting through many "weed-out" classes, writing long research papers, taking rigorous exams, and then enduring countless hours of studying to become certified. Consider along with that the fact that tax issues often overlap with other areas (e.g. financial statements) that the CPA firm is already providing and can therefore offer the best advice.

In the end, EXPERIENCE is the best SCHOOL for any professional, whether credentialed as a CPA or EA. And, while the uninformed public may be willing to fork over more for a CPA than for an EA before knowing either professional, in time either professional will prove their worth through competence and diligence...or not.

Even if you have an EA or a CPA, if you want to get a job in America, you need to speak English and/or Spanish fluently. If you're too lazy to speak correctly, I don't think I'd hire you to be on my staff for any position. It's like pointing at a number with dirty fingernails. Dirty nails = dirty numbers. Good luck.

I am a CPA from NY with 4 years experience in Real estate and little tax. I just moved my family to Florida and started working for a midsize firm in Ft Lauderdale. however, due to the bad ecocnomy, no firms here work on RE audits. I'm freaking out because thats my specialty and I feel like i need to start over here. I'm considering getting my EA cerdentials to give me more tax knowledge and hopefully start my own side pratcice? what do you think?

I personally wouldn't hire a person with either credidential but no practical work experience.

Do you know what they call the person who only scores 70% on his medical school final exam?

"Doctor."

Contact the Fla Board of Accountancy.

Anyway, I decided to sneak across the border into Mexico, and see if I can find work down there.

I passed the first time after 2 years with a tax lawyer; prior to that I'd spent twelve years with a tiny PA doing write-ups, worksheets and some 1040s/1120s etc but certainly nothing heavy in way of experience.

I want to see people with knowledge, not letters after their name.

Jane in CT

Jane in CT

Let me ask you, can you represent clients in front of the IRS in CT, if you are a NY CPA?

I am a CPA and can represent clients in front of the IRS due to my CPA license(NY) and my CPA license. However, I still find it difficult to get partnerships and corps to come to me for my tax business. I did find a PT position with a CPA firm. Hopefully, they will be able to help me get my license in CT.

Jane in CT

I am a CPA and can represent clients in front of the IRS due to my CPA license(NY) and my CPA license. However, I still find it difficult to get partnerships and corps to come to me for my tax business. I did find a PT position with a CPA firm. Hopefully, they will be able to help me get my license in CT.

Jane in CT

CPA CT: Cheverly-Police and Citizens Together

PP: Pronounciation Practice?

I have difficulties in remembering all the acronyms.

I had a crucial conversation the other day, and the person asked me about ONRI. Unfortunately I wasn't able to explain it to him, and it wasn't until later that I remembered "Other Net Rental Income"...... Ahhhh. Sigh.

I've taken the EA exam and passed. I've also taken many practice CPA exams but I haven't actually sat yet. When I compare the tax portion of the CPA exam to the EA exam, I find the EA exam to be slightly harder. However, when I compare the EA exam to the CPA exam in it's entirety, I have to admit that the CPA exam is a much harder test.

When I tell friends and family that I am an EA they almost always say, "What's that?". When I tell them that I also plan to take the CPA exam they all seem to know what a CPA is. Therefore we can assume that the public will more likely than not perceive the CPA as being the best professional to contact for tax help. Marketing your tax practice as a CPA firm will be much easier than as an EA firm.

The next question is, which certification is really better at answering tax questions? In my experience, I can overwhelmingly say that it depends on the individual. I've audited and corrected returns prepared by both EA's and CPA's who I would not trust to fill out a W-4. But on the other hand, in a previous job there was an EA who was the office "tax guru", at my current job it's a CPA who is the "tax guru". When I say "tax guru" I'm not talking about the person in charge, I'm talking about the person who I trust to point me in the right direction when I have a tax question.

In summary, the CPA designation is probably worth more because it's more widely recognized by the public, looks better on the sign outside your office, and may carry more weight on a resume. However, you should not make the mistake of assuming that any given CPA is a better tax practitioner than any given EA.

Regards...

The person makes the credentials, not the other way around.

I would encourage others to take the CPA and/or EA for the recognition but wouldn't demean anyone for not doing so.

Having taken both, the CPA exam is more difficult (due to format, depth, and breadth) by degrees. The CPA is also more expensive to take. If I could get my CPA without the apprentice requirement, which I simply can no longer satisfy because I work in another field, I would go back and complete it as well.

Michael

I teach the kids that if they will become an EA, and then invest the money they would have spent on the much more expensive CPA test, then even with a moderate rate of return, they will become millionaires by the time they are 55. Without even working!

You cannot come out ahead paying the ridiculous fee for the CPA test, and all the books and school to prepare for it!

Think about that. EXACTLY equal.

If you don't the cost of schooling, I'd guess that the total cost of a CPA review course will run from the same as to ten times the cost of the standard EA review course (Becker's being the extreme limit at well over two grand for the CPA and Gleim being the most expensive EA review at about $700.)

EA exam runs, what, about $300 if you pass each Part first time? The four CPA exam parts run a bit more.

Everyone is getting bogged down in the details, while I'm taking this idea to the bank.

As I write, I've got 400 people in India texting out to the young American demographic: "Become an EA, and invest the difference....", followed by my contact information.

P.S. No, I did not steal this idea from the "Buy term, and invest the difference" crowd.<cough>

The EA will cost me probably about $500 by the time I am done.

Maybe not a substantial difference to some and it could be argued that you will make that difference up over your career...no argument there. However, I would argue that I can probably meet or exceed the fees of most CPA's by heavily getting involved in representation services.

Like I said, if I could satisfy the apprentice requirements, I might go back and complete the CPA as well. But I cannot get my license without losing tens of thousands of dollars a year to do so due to the salary I make now verses what I would have to make to go back to an Accounting profession for the apprenticeship. Not worth that to me. Assuming my current job goes away and I strike out on my own, I will still not be able to get the CPA.

Michael

Gleim sells a CPA review for about $700. I have no idea if it's any good. Word on the "street", though, is that Becker is the gold standard (pre-FDR, not just pre-Nixon) and you want to do this thing only ONCE.

The average Bar review course runs two to three kilobucks but, of course, that's AFTER shelling out $100,000 or so for a J.D.

As many have said, no amount of letters guarantees competency or success.

With the states licensing tax preparers and raising public awareness, the EA associations need to leverage that to get the word out as to what an EA is.

"to provide assurance to the public that only individuals of unquestioned moral character are permitted to be counted among the ranks of certified public accountants."

So if any of you wanna-bees out there can not pass the smell test of "unquestioned moral character" ....what ever that is....give it up and stick with the EAs.

Thank God the Bar Association makes sure you only turn bad AFTER you get the license!

and Enron's former CPA firm?

As far as people claiming to be CPAs who aren't, that's illegal in Hawaii. I would imagine it's illegal in many other states as well.

I could claim I have a fishing license, when in reality I don't, but if I'm not fishing it wouldn't be breaking the law.

surely he couldn't then be of "unquestioned moral character"

My state also increased the requirements to be a CPA (Again!) It is called credential creep, more training (work & costs) to get the same job that pays the same.

I don't know of any audit that can be done in any state by a non-CPA.

This is now the 8th-most viewed and 16th-most commented thread in TaxAlmanac's venerable history.

On the other hand, I guess I will stick to taxes and IRS representation for the time being. At least that would not require me to be a "CPA by law."

Shockemgud: I see you've done an audit this year.

Linkenwater: I have indeed.

Shockemgud: First one of your career?

Linkenwater: First one, but I'm only 60.

Shockemgud: I see. Growing part of your business, is it?

Linkenwater: Oh yes, I suspect I'll do another one before I'm 75.

If there's one thing you learn hanging around tax folks is that it's surely not the hairdresser that knows all, nor is it the everyday attorney, nor even the big city cop.

It's the tax preparer that has seen and heard it all.

It's the tax preparer in whatever form he or she takes!

Yes indeed, it takes a certain kind of person (not me) to be able to tolerate it, and as I've said several times on here, it really is a patriotic profession, because there are easier ways to make money than trying to stitch the fragment of some Reg. together with another one at midnight on a Friday night to help a client or a poor widder or orphan, as I've seen many of you do.

Regarding the background of EA candidates, I believe there should be an accounting background requirement. Not that any of you non-accounting background EA's aren't qualified. However, for new EA's it would be very difficult to come from a Computer science background and be able to apply a reasonableness test to an S Corp or a Partnership's set of books. We do not do audits nor are we responsible for client omissions but we are expected to be moderately able to spot incomplete or inaccurate information. JMHO, YMMV.

Michael

These kids get tired just lugging their business cards around, what with all the initials...

Having said that, being a CPA doesn't necessarily mean that you know much, it's just that you are able to rip people off at the end of the day with rates... I had a CPA giving me work and reviewing my work as well, he was just as baffled as I was on some issues I thought to be not so complex. The manager would have to provide insight because she had more experience, not because she was a CPA.

I feel that preparing for the EA exam and passing will give me a more in depth knowledge of taxation and the license to represent tax payers. However, obtaining a CPA will just be more appealing to the public not because that it's better than becoming an EA, but simply because people are more familiar with the term CPA. Most of the associates at the firm weren't even familiar with the term EA, however, those that matter (HR, Partners and Managers) were.

The EA Association need to be more active in the public eye to create more awareness because at the end of the day in regards to representation EAs, CPAs and JDs are equivalent.

The majority of us are professionals who don't rip off people with rates. I give many clients discounts on rates and freebies, etc.

Know a little more about the profession before you shoot your mouth off.

Tom

I have worked in both public accounting <CPA Firms> and private accounting as a comptroller before opening my own practice. I have met people with just an accounting degree that could match wits with pretty much anyone here, and there be some smart Mo Fo's in this house.

The basic deal is that the public perception is that we CPA's know our stuff. As EA's, it shouldn't be about bringing CPA's down to make you look better. Your respective associations need to do a public awareness campaign pumping up the skills set of the EA.

If all you wish to do is tax, then either EA or CPA will do. If you are undecided, then CPA is the way to go as it will open more doors and afford you more options. By more options, I mean that it will get you in the door quicker, and you aren't locked in to tax, you can do audit, you can work in private, become a comptroller, etc. An EA designation gets you a tax job. CPA, gets you that and much more if you are any good. These designations are simply keys that will help you open doors. If you do not have the ability to produce once those doors are opened, you'll be done soon anyhow.

As for the IRS weeding out bad preparers, it again doesn't matter whether you are CPA or EA, there are bad pennies in both piles.

Just my 2 CPA cents

The concern is that some state boards of accountancy are saying that a CPA from another state cannot come into their state and offer tax advice or representation without first getting permit or license from that state's board. There's also been some litigation concerning lawyers in the same or similar position. Much of this ferment is the result of the commercial world getting smaller and less local, a trend unlikely to reverse itself.

The one "safe harbor" is enrollment. No state authority can restrict the Cir. 230 tax practice of an enrolled agent because s/he's a federal licensee. This is so even if that person is also a CPA or attorney.

I've gotten to the point where I recommend enrollment for EVERY tax practitioner, whether lawyer, CPA, or unenrolled preparer. The SEE is neither unduly difficult nor particularly expensive and enrollment is not impossibly hard to maintain once obtained.

Personally, I like FsteinCPAs comment that the EAs should raise their public 'status' (read awareness and billing rates) to that of the CPAs, rather than try to pull CPAs down (to the level of lack of public awareness or to lower billing).

If the public client is willing to pay a CPA $500 for a job, but an EA wants to charge only, say $350 for it, who is getting ripped off? The client? Probably not, because to him, the job IS worth $500. The CPA is charging what the market will bear. Supply and demand. Simple economics. Charge too much you lose too many clients. Charge too little and you give your life away for free.

The person getting ripped off is probably the EA who only thinks that his service is worth $350. He is 'ripping' himeself off because he doesn't feel his service warrants a fee of $500. But he sets his own rates, so he knows what his time is worth. If his time is only worth $350 for the job, then no one was ripped off. If he raises his level of professionalism (however that is accomplished) maybe he could raise his rates.

Anyways, there is something to think about in there somewhere. And it is a reminder for me to raise my rates. Thanks.

I agree that EA's provide a valuable service, but the title is misleading. Enrolled Agent does sound like they work for the IRS in some respects. It also needs more public awareness as Fred and Kevin mention.

It takes a lot to tick me off. I have bigger things to worry about these days as you know, Crow and most everyone else does here on the board. But the EA vs. CPA thing is old and frankly just tiresome.

I recently ordered the Gleim EA series as a refresher since my last episode really did a number on me. When I started from the beginning, I remembered more than I realized, but did forget some subtle items. A refresher is always good. I just have to keep at it because with me right now, I forget things that were once so easy. My pride makes it difficult for me to admit, like my pride gets in the way of admitting my therapist wants me to use a cane at the age of 48.

Tom

Whether CPA or EA, anyone who achieves either (or both) are top notch people who possess the acumen to do a great job for any client. The people on this board are top notch experts and good people.

As for rates charged by CPA's or EA's being over the top, let that client give it a go on their own and see how expensive guessing is. I had a client who wanted to save $40 instead of letting me file her 940. She was late, it was wrong, she was penalized, and all for what?

Michael

Some of these big law firms charge astronomical fees, some might say they are a rip-off fees (I would).

However, from the perspective of the client, they are not just paying for the legal work, they are paying for the name. The "fear factor" that having a big firm on your side can put on the other side. So, I guess it's not a rip-off to the client, looked at from that perspective.

Overall, I think the CPA's are more respectful to each other across the spectrum than the attorneys are. To the big firm attorneys, the little guys like me don't exist.

P.S. I do understand that this recession has put a haircut to the big firm pricing ability; which the firms usually handle by letting go the young ones. lol.

P.P.S. Also, agree with NMex. It would seem to make a lot more sense for a lawyer to get the EA, rather than the CPA, for the nationwide coverage. However, the trend seems to be the CPA, and as you probably know, there is even a CPA/Atty. Association. My guess is that a lot of these people already have the CPA, and then they go to law school.

I interned at one of the top ranked internship programs not just for accounting firms but internships in general. Having said that, I was engaged on some heavy assignments after I completed rigorous training sessions for about 4-5 weeks and then they threw us to the wolves... I have gained enough knowledge to provide sound tax planning strategies regarding REITS and UPREITS (deferring those gains up to 10 yrs). I am proficient with tax research having used CCH and BNA as a combination... The list goes on and on. Basically interns at the Big Four I was at do associate level work and more depending on what group you're in.

TaxJunkie..... and yes that is indicative of my knowledge

Please re-read what you wrote. Besides the grammar and spelling errors in your post and the one above, you are not experienced enough to come here and sit in judgment of the CPA/EA profession as a whole.

What I objected to, as I clearly stated, was your very amateur posting. You said, "being a CPA doesn't necessarily mean that you know much, it's just that you are able to rip people off at the end of the day with rates." That's not out of context. It's your words. I slammed it because it's just not professional or becoming of you.

If you are a professional, which this site is for, please fill out a profile as we request. My information is readily available for you to contact me personally. I have no problem with people doing so and many members have done so and I have developed good friendships as a result. I don't lurk in the shadows on the board. I haven't been here as much lately due to illness which I have freely and widely shared with my friends here on the board. You are free to look for the postings on it from last year.

I am glad you had a great experience at a Big Four (or Final Four as we old-timers say). That's valuable experience. However, many of us do the everyday working man's returns, the elderly, the poor, some rich clients, whomever sometimes walks in our door. Some of us do 1065's, 1120S', 1120's, 990's, etc. We run the gamut around this forum. That's why we come here to share our knowledge, whether it be CPA or EA, CTP or whatever. As long as you are a professional tax preparer, you are welcome here.

However, we don't take shots at the professions of one another. We joke around with each other in good fun (look at the Chat Section), have a good time, etc. We do, though, take our job seriously. Kevinh5 keeps us in line, Natalie, our little flower from Hawaii is our den mother, CrowJD keeps us spiritually grounded when he isn't someone else and Fsteincpa chases the girls and drinks as much tequila as we let him.

So, before you write another missive, think before you write.

Tom

PS: In my previous post, I was talking about my physical therapist, who is still drop dead gorgeous.

Tom

while many may not know it, she has saved Tomorrow for TA more times than Superman

Sorry about that, Trillium.

As they say these days, "My bad."

Tom

Part II of the EA is very similar in difficulty and scope to what I remember about the CPA exam. Different format but just as difficult.

Michael

Anyways, that's what Trillium is. He's like what the Indians call the "Great Spirit". You don't see him, you don't feel him, you can't hear him (whats the other one. Oh yeah). You can't taste him or smell him.

Is there intelligent creation around here, or did this just evolve?

Of course, some say the whole thing is a big production: all that fire and and smoke, and a little snake oil salesman hiding behind a curtain, like that Oz Wizard.

P.S. After this trenchent comment was first posted, the Great Spirit himself did contact me. How he did this, I cannot presently divulge, however, I can report to the board that THERE IS A GOD. And we should all smokeum the peace pipe. Especially the Hatfields and the McCoys errr I mean the EAs and the CPAs.

"I don't know of any audit that can be done in any state by a non-CPA"-AEM CPA RESPONSE

I merely meant that in my state, community associations must have an audit by a CPA every 3 years, so if that is what someone wants to do for a living he needs to become a CPA.

That said, small companies have *quasi-audits not called audits* by bookkeepers that are often called "Financial checkups" or whatever. As long as they do not actually call it an audit and not sign an attestation it is OK. Besides, there are also internal audits. Many audits do not even have anything to do with accounting such as when a school district gets a special education audit.

Becker CPA Review is what I used and although it was expensive (around $1,000 for the Regulation section), it was ok. After I left the CPA exam I felt like I had been completely blindsided by some of the topics and I had put in 150+ hours of studying. The taxation stuff on the CPA is pretty basic, but I would say the Enrolled Agent exam was way more in depth and much more difficult overall on that subject.

Also, if you've taken any tax professional CPE - a lot of the part 3 material is covered in the 2 hour Ethics sessions. At least I cover it in the ones that I teach.

I was hoping NASBA would realease my CPA - REG score today, but the AICPA is slooooooooooow. The test is mostly computerized so I just don't see why they take so long to grade. I'm venting... the waiting is killing me.

We didn't expect them to know HOW to represent someone, but they need to understand everything about the 2848, the structure of the IRS (different levels, etc), the appeals process, what constitutes 'authority', and what limitations exist (what can an EA NOT do).

Once a person IS a C-230 individual, he can learn HOW to represent someone (NAEA's 3 year NTPI program being the best education out there on that topic).

I beleive the AICPA has released the BEC scores to NASBA, but due to an IT issue, they still haven't come out.

REG and FAR will most likely be next week ~ best of luck & try to enjoy your weekend.

I learned much more about taxes by taking the EA exam than while taking the CPA exam. Most people are pretty good with personal but the areas I learned the most about was business taxation.

I don't know that it will result in more or more expensive clients as most clients know very little about the EA program. I think the EA credential is much more relevant to your abilities to help your clients but will not buy you much in the way of clients.

BrockEA

I have gradually become convinced that any tax practitioner considering a multi-state practice would do well to consider enrollement even if he or she is already a CPA or lawyer. Enrollment is a federal license. No state bar or board of accountancy may restrict or regulate the Cir. 230 practice of an enrolled agent. These bodies can, and sometimes do, attempt to restrict the tax practice of out-of-state lawyers and CPAs. Regardless of the public or professional perception of the EA license, (good, bad, or most often nonexistent), it is solid insurance against those who might seek to protect their own local markets from competition.

Kevin, to pass each level is there a separate test? Or just attending the classes?

Rumors are that there are three levels: yellow, red, and black belt. To pass we have to confront and throw an IRS auditor (of the appropriate belt). Also, that we would have to shatter the RIA five volume set of Federal Tax Regulations with one flying kick. Please quell these rumors.

BrockEA

NYS now requires a registration for those who prepare 1-10 NYS returns, PLUS a registration fee of $ 100 annually for those who prepare more than 10 returns. The ONLY people who are exempt from the $ 100 and the registration - are CPAs and Attorneys that are licensed by NYS. EAs are not exempted. Neither are CPAs and Attorneys licensed in other states.

So while your philosophy of states not being able to restrict EAs is really what it should be - NYS presently is actually restricting EAs.