Discussion:2 Year Requirement Met for Homeowner Exclusion?
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| 22 January 2008 | |
| My client is single and has owned a trailer on property for ten years, which has been his principal residence. Last year, he built another home on the same property. Once the new home was finished, he moved to the new home and disposed of the trailer that he had been living in. He has been in the new home for one year now. Would he meet the two year test if he sells since he's owned the "property" that the house is on for a decade, or must the physical home itself be considered?
Want to make sure client stays in house another year if necessary since close to $100,000 of gain potential. IRC 121 doesn't appear definitive to me on this, or the related Reg. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 22 January 2008 |
| Reg. 1.121-1(b) and (c) define residence and use requirements. If it were me, I would advise he hold it another year, or find a reason to slip through on the partial gain provisions [moving for job, health etc]. | |
| 22 January 2008 | |
| The exclusions would not be met by this client, so I can't bank on any of those. Reg 1.121-(b)(2) leads me to believe that upon arguing the issue at hand, it could be said that the taxpayer really never moved.
The land is the exact same. There is only one parcel that has been homesteaded since 1999 and lived in. The trailer was of no value and disposed to move into the house. Workplace remained the same, address for all purposes is the same too. Would anyone agree that although no specific examples in the Regs address the situation I have, that the language of Reg 1.121-(b)(2) would allow the exemption? | |
Bushmaster (talk|edits) said: | 22 January 2008 |
| I would think it would apply and here is the rationale. The gain would almost be 100% attributable to the value of the land when he built the house. The land and the mobile home would meet the test. Since the FMV of the built house could be argued is cost, no gain would be recognized on the house even if the 2 out 5 wasn't met. | |
TaxManager (talk|edits) said: | 22 January 2008 |
| I don't see what the difference the material his home is made out of. His primary residence has been 123 Anywhere lane for the last 10 years. If his home burnt down and he built a new one that was a diffferent style from his last home wouldn't he still get the exclusion. | |
| 22 January 2008 | |
| I have to disagree with Bushmaster and TaxManager. In relation to the land, check out Reg. Sec. 121(b)(3)(ii). Exceptions in this Code section seem to depend on the dwelling unit qualifying for the exclusion. The home burning down would be like an involuntary conversion and is not the same, in my opinion, as getting rid of one home and replacing it voluntarily with another. I would have him wait one more year. If the housing market is as bad where he lives as it is where I live, he probably doesn't want to sell now anyway. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 22 January 2008 |
| What strikes me about the regulation is that they use "property" and "residence" almost interchangably. I would agree with Greg. | |
Bushmaster (talk|edits) said: | 22 January 2008 |
| That is because houses aren't deeded, the property is. If you sell just the house, you have to MOVE it. The property is the dirt.
While the code is actually silent on this issue, the fact that you can separately sell the house and the land (in the case of adjoinging property) up to 2 years after the fact and exclude all the gain leads me to conclude this is more about dirt than lumber. | |
TaxManager (talk|edits) said: | 22 January 2008 |
| According to 121(b)Residence—(1) In general. Whether property is used by the taxpayer as the taxpayer's residence depends upon all the facts and circumstances. A property used by the taxpayer as the taxpayer's residence may include a houseboat, a house trailer etc.
The trailer was used as his primary residence which is on his land. Just like a 4 room ranch would be on his land. If I have 100 acres and I lived in a home on the property for 10 years and I built a house right next to it and tore down the original home. Then I decided to move Why would that matter? The address is still my primary residence. Why would it be any different if I tore the home I was living in down and stayed with a relative while it was rebuilt. Then sold it. In all of the above I have lived at this location for the last 2 out of 5 years, I have owned my home on my land and I considered it my primary residence | |
| 22 January 2008 | |
| I would like to lean towards excluding the gain, of course. But it appears that the code does not directly address this issue, as Bushmaster noted.
The client actually built the home himself so has a substantial amount of sweat equity involved. Most of the gain would reside with the new home, not the land and previous trailer. I am thinking this may be something the client can decide whether to pursue aggressively, since the statutes are not specific enough to get a clear cut answer. The easiest answer of course is to stay there another year, but if he gets a good offer I'm sure he'll take it. In order to cushion any potential negative effects, would it be best to estimate tax on gain if determined to be taxable and advise client to place that money in the bank for the statute period? I figured three years initially, but could be as many as six since IRS could consider it underreporting of income by greater than 25%. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 22 January 2008 |
| "According to 121(b)Residence—(1) In general. Whether property is used by the taxpayer as the taxpayer's residence depends upon all the facts and circumstances. A property used by the taxpayer as the taxpayer's residence may include a houseboat, a house trailer etc.
The trailer was used as his primary residence which is on his land. Just like a 4 room ranch would be on his land." As I see it, the problem is that he did not sell the trailer, but a house he constructed. There were stories in our local papers of a man who lives in an old station wagon on his land. Suppose it had been a teepee. Would that change the answer? I rather think it would. Ten years of law and this type of issue has yet to be addressed. It will cost $946, or would have last year, to get a letter ruling. | |
| 22 January 2008 | |
| I hadn't thought of asking for a letter ruling on the issue, but it could be something potentially worthwhile. Paying a thousand dollars even if it amounts in having to pay the gain in the end may potentially be worth the headache of sitting on $15-20K for 3 to six years worrying about the IRS catching up with him.
Who knows though, maybe the IRS will be having a generous day and allow this for him.... | |
| 22 January 2008 | |
| The potential problem I see is that he has increased the value of the entire property drastically by building the home on it. If I lived in a trailer on a large tract of land and I knew I was going to sell and move on I might say, "Why not get a loan to build a home and increase my profit when I sell?" I know that may not have been his intention, but the IRS may have that suspicion during examination were it to occur. | |
| 22 January 2008 | |
| I agree that this has probably not been clearly addressed. But it seems that our concern has to do mostly with the prior home being a trailer. As D&T pointed out, IRS clearly says this is a home. If rather than a trailer we had an old home that was radically remodelled would our concerns still exist? I don't believe the IRS has given us guidance on a major remodel so I am not convinced there is a problem. Yet with that much money riding on it I would be hesitant. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 23 January 2008 |
| But the trailer was sold [more than likely a non-deductible personal loss] and did not exist, at which time he owned land. I might think more positively if the trailer were still there. Excuse me, the trailer was 'disposed of.' | |
| 23 January 2008 | |
| The trailer was used as the client's home during the construction of his current home, which took about a year to build. It was a single-wide trailer with little to no value, and the client had to actually pay someone to haul it away.
There was never a point in time when there was no home for him to live in, where there would have only been raw land. I guess I would argue the point with the IRS, if necessary, that the taxpayer's "home" never really changed since it was the same address, location, etc. as stated in the Reg's definition at Reg 1.121-(b)(2). | |
| 23 January 2008 | |
| Just a note, Rev. Proc. 2007-3 states the IRS will no longer make advance rulings on whether a home qualifies as a pricipal residence for the gain exclusion. I am starting to believe, however, that you have a fairly strong position for the exclusion. The facts that your client did not live in the trailer for any period before he decided to build the home and that the he lived in the trailer on the exact same property while the home was being built because he had no other residence I believe work in your favor. Still, if its a large gain, I would urge the client to stash some cash just in case. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 23 January 2008 |
| "All the facts and circumstances" is an apt phrase. I could see another example where person buys land, puts a trailer on it, lives there a year or two, builds house, sells house at profit and claims exemption, only to use the money to buy more land, put trailer on it, spend a year, build a house, sell it, claim exclusion, buys another plot, put trailer ad infinitum. In this hypothetical case we might be arguing whether he gets 121 treatment, capital gain or is he a builder?
That situation is very different from the person who has five properties and slowly liquidates each under 121 by using the two of five rule because in each case, the properties existed before he moved into them. The facts of this OP's case are significantly different, and I would expect that we shall never know. What is funny here is under our new requirements, where is the MLTN bright line? | |
TaxManager (talk|edits) said: | 23 January 2008 |
| Death & Taxes. I would still argue that under your scenerio that it would still qualify for 121. If his primary residence is his trailer. Who are you to say that is not his "home". If there is no other residence for him to live in and all other qualifications are met then he is clearly living at his primary residence. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 23 January 2008 |
| I assume you refer to the builder when you say 'your scenario.' I live in an area where there are many tiny cottages built in the 1940s that are suddenly leveled, a McMansion erected and then sold, so the question has more than passing interest to me. In about half the cases, the cottage is sold first and the buyer erects the new house, but for the other half......
I read the Committee Reports from passage of TRA 1997 and there is no smoking gun there either: 'a taxpayer must have owned the residence and occupied it as a principal residence for at least two of the five years prior to the sale or exchange.' In our instant case, he has owned the land, that is for sure. It comes down to 'has he owned the residence that he sold for the two years?' | |
| 23 January 2008 | |
| Hi, I didnt read all the notes but why not say the home was an "improvement" to the trailer. Anyways I think I would take the exclusion he lived "there" for two years. bye | |
| 23 January 2008 | |
| Sec. 280A(f) defines "Dwelling Unit" as a"...house, apartment, condominium, mobile home, boat, or similar property, and all other structures or property appurtenant to such dwelling unit." Perhaps you can make a connection there. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 23 January 2008 |
| My problem is more that the 'appurtenant' wasn't there anymore. Look it this as if he had replaced his rental trailer with a rental house, and sold it in eleven months. Wouldn't we be concerned with the lack of 12 month period to make it long term? | |
| 23 January 2008 | |
| Yes, I see your point. It seems correct that he should be able to this, but the Regs just seem to indicate otherwise. I think he has a great argument, the problem is that there is just not any real good support to go along with it. If the trailer was appurtenant, then, as D&T said, why isn't it there anymore. The Code addresses involuntary conversions and like-kind exchanges, but not this type of situation. I can't find any case law on that fits, so even though it seems the exclusion should be available, there doesn't appear to be very good support. Not good on the MLTN front. I would go through the regs relentlessly until I could piece something together. There may be some language hidden there that could help. There are probably some cases or rulings, but i can't seem to find them in my limited time. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 24 January 2008 |
| The other problem here in terms of garnering support is that 121 totally replaced the old Section 1034, and when you read the committee reports, they are more concerned with why the new section was put into place, not on defining exactly what they meant.
I used 'appurtenant' more as a joke than anything. The trailer was certainly a dwelling, but the fact is that it is gone. Yet I would feel comfortable on the MLTN front because IRS will not make advanced rulings, as Greg notes. | |
| 24 January 2008 | |
| Faulty memory recalls something about a guy with a duplex who started to use both halves as his residence a year or so before he sold. As I recall he lost. These are separate structures we are talking about. Suppose instead of building it was a rental sitting next to his trailer? Would that make a difference? Conversion to personal use seems to be the starting point for the two years. | |
| 24 January 2008 | |
| I believe the Regs do address a change from business to personal use, the time frame, and basis involved, but unfortunately it doesn't fit the case I'm looking at.
I really appreciate all the great input from everyone on here. My client is going to be very happy to know that there are several professionals providing input on this quite vague issue. Please feel free to let me know if you see anything else that may fit this discussion. Thanks! | |
| 24 January 2008 | |
| Change from business use has little to do with it. Make the second structure a vacation home. Your position would seem to say that client can build a spec home and get the exclusion if he sells his own house along with it. | |
| 24 January 2008 | |
| Dennis, I believe the Regs do address a situation as you state when you sell a property with two homes on it. I would agree that if it was just a spec home or investment home that he built, and he still had his own home on the property he'd run into trouble.
But the original house was removed once the new house was in move in condition. I guess the hard part with this too is that there was a trailer with little to no value that is much more easily removed than a stick-built house. | |
| 24 January 2008 | |
| Sell, remove...why should it make a difference whether the trailer is there or not? Basically if you build yourself a house you have to live in it for two years to get the exclusion. Hardly matters if the house you build is on the land you've been living on or in the next state. The land itself will qualify for the exclusion (Lord knows how you allocate) but not the house. | |
| 24 January 2008 | |
| Recommending my client stay in the house for 2 years, was my initial feeling on the issue too Dennis. But after reading through the code and Regs, it appears the language is vague enough to have an argument towards providing the entire exclusion for my client.
Intuitively, I agree with you Dennis, but I also enjoy digging into the statutes to find any potential advantages for my client - I really do think that I have found one with the fact that the code and Regs do not really speak to the specific issue that I have in any definitive terms. | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 24 January 2008 |
| You are absolutely right; the code and regs are vague and do not support either position, but I would let the client know how much it would actually cost to fight such a case, which appears to be one of 'first impression' as the Tax Court would call it. If audited and IRS disagrees, will he quit at audit or appeals level and pay the tax plus interest or does he go on to Tax Court, where the attorney fee may take away much of the tax saving? Measure this against the potential loss in market value in the unsettled real estate market of today. | |
| 24 January 2008 | |
| Hi what happens if you have an old shack tear it down and rebuild around it a mansion. The clock doesnt start ticking again on that. I dont care if it was a trailer to me the property has and was always used as his personal residence. I would look at it wakes and if you find nothing to say no the facts say yes to me. bye | |


